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Old 07-26-2016
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The Seafoam Disaster

In an attempt to rid the combustion chamber of carbon, I fed the stuff into the vacuum port where the EVAP system is hooked up to intake manifold.
This area is just after the throttle body down low on the Vulcan V6.

Of course with the vacuum hose off and me poring the stuff in, the engine was barely running and it eventually stalled.
So I got impatient and dumped the hole can in and started the engine.

The engine did start, but poorly with lots smoke.
However somehow some of the Seafoam made its way into one of the lifters _ very noisy ! Lots of clatter...

It's slowly filling up with oil and becoming quiet, but how did poring the Seafoam into the intake manifold affect the lifter ???

And in all honesty, if there is so much carbon in an engine that's prone to pinging, the only cure is to tear the top end apart and physically remove the carbon.
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Old 07-26-2016
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If you're going to be doing it this way, you need to be patient. How it got into the lifters, I don't know.

But, in the future, I'd recommend the spray version of seafoam which slips in before the intake.
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Old 07-26-2016
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I did use the spray version and it didn't really help with the pinging.
I think it's beyond the Seafoam fix anyway.

I wonder if I damaged a rocker arm or push rod by pouring it into the manifold.
Just trying to think...

The lifter seemed to be getting quiet, but then when I started it up again, it's now noisy.
But then it becomes quiet at idle after a while, but I can hear it at speed or driving around town.

Very odd why pouring it into the manifold would cause such a strange reaction.

If one of the bores was full of Seafom and the piston was on it's way up, it would be forced back out into one of the exhaust manifolds and also forced into the valve guide a bit. Just trying to wrap my head around this...

That still wouldn't explain how it got into the lifter.
Assuming the lifter is even the problem, but it sure sounds like a typical lifter problem.
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Old 07-26-2016
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Here's what I would do.

Purchase an oil flush product and use as directed. Purchase an oil and filter then do an at-home oil change to be-rid of as much seafoam that may be in the oil as possible.
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Old 07-27-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArcticWolf1911 View Post
Here's what I would do.

Purchase an oil flush product and use as directed. Purchase an oil and filter then do an at-home oil change to be-rid of as much seafoam that may be in the oil as possible.
That's a good common sense idea, thanks !
I know one of the lifters was making a very slight bit of noise, so I guess enough Seafoam thinned out the oil enough to push that particular lifter over the edge.
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Old 07-27-2016
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Seafoam didn't get into lifter, but by pouring in too much fluid while an engine is running or after it stopped, you probably did a partial hydrolock on a valve, so valve couldn't open all the way which forced that lifter's piston all the way to the bottom and it stuck there for a bit, which caused the ticking.
If it started working again then consider yourself lucky, it could be damaged but nothing you can do about that now, just keep it in mind if you hear a noise down the road.

And really consider yourself lucky that you didn't break a piston or bend a connecting rod after pouring a fluid into the intake of a non-running engine, that is a BIG BIG NO-NO
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Old 07-27-2016
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before changing your oil pour a quart of trans fluid into crank case with it being a lighter oil it may pump that lifter up again
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Old 07-27-2016
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^ Hate to burst your bubble, but not a good thing to do. Engines are designed to use a specific weight of oil.

And, if you just dump in one quart without removing one quart, you're going to have more oil pressure than you should, which could (and probably will) cause more damage.

And lastly, that will inevitably contaminate the crankcase and the oil you'll be putting in.

In short, don't.
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Old 07-27-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonD View Post
Seafoam didn't get into lifter, but by pouring in too much fluid while an engine is running or after it stopped, you probably did a partial hydrolock on a valve, so valve couldn't open all the way which forced that lifter's piston all the way to the bottom and it stuck there for a bit, which caused the ticking.
If it started working again then consider yourself lucky, it could be damaged but nothing you can do about that now, just keep it in mind if you hear a noise down the road.

And really consider yourself lucky that you didn't break a piston or bend a connecting rod after pouring a fluid into the intake of a non-running engine, that is a BIG BIG NO-NO
I'll eventually pull the head(s) off to see what damage has been done.
I know I won't be able to tolerate that noisy lifter, so I will be dealing with that.
It seems to go away, but the noise is always there and it doesn't have as much power now _ probably because the lifter isn't opening the valve all the way and or the push rod is bent.
Maybe the pushrod is bent _ who knows.
I feel like such an idiot _ I just didn't fall off a vegetable truck yesterday, I should have known better, it just never occurred to me that something like that could happen.
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Old 07-31-2016
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So I thought I would update this thread.
Did a compression test and number 6 was only at 135/140 psi, so I installed new lifters, but still no improvement on compression.
Although the noise is quieter, there is still lots of lifter noise.
I guess the Seafoam affected more then one cylinder, although all were quite good at 150 to 160 psi.

The condition of the lifters are the worst I've seen, the piston is stuck right on there from severe varnish build up on all of them.
The big return spring inside is absolutely useless and I don't how they work exactly, but with out the return spring being able to operate the lifter, I don't think they are getting a fresh supply of oil.
When I took the lifters apart on #6 it was filled with this black goopy oil _ what a mess _ no fresh oil was getting in.
I had to heat it up with plenty of WD40 to finally get it apart.

I suspect because the lifters are not working correctly the exhaust valve is starting to burn on #6.
The frozen lifter has kept the valve from seating properly _ I may be wrong, but at this point the lifter(s) are frozen and will eventually keep all the valves from seating properly as the valve seat and face wear.
I haven't done an oil compression test yet to see if the rings are bad, but I can't see the rings being the cause of the low compression.

One good thing when I removed the lower intake manifold, the intake valves were nice and clean _ maybe that's one of the positive attributes of a fuel injected engine is that the gas being sprayed so close to the intake valves, keeps them clean.

Last edited by Jeff R 1; 07-31-2016 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 07-31-2016
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60 PSI is barely enough compression to ignite fuel vapor. Ron's hydrolock theory is spot on I was reading this thread and came to that conclusion but he had already replied. You are actually lucky it isn't worse.

TAW is spot on with the don't thin the oil this never turns out good.

With 60PSI compression you need to do a leak down and see if your rings are wasted which I suspect they are. Sorry to say but it might be time for a slightly fresher motor... you could do the heads and lifters but if you don't do a leak down and the rings are bad you just wasted a butt ton of money.
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Old 07-31-2016
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OMG !
I meant 150/160/135/140.
I worked on it yesterday putting in the new lifters for 12 hours, I'm still kind of tired.
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Old 07-31-2016
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LOL now since you edited your post it makes it look as if I made a reading mistake :)

I read that and thought "My briggs and stratton has more compression than that"

Hope the project turns out well!
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Old 08-13-2016
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It looks like the bottom end has been damaged, probably the one with low compression.
I suspect the wrist pin or rather the piston where the wrist pin goes into has been damaged; and probably in all likely hood the connecting has been tweaked as well.
I've replaced all the lifters and the "tick" remains _ I took it for a short drive so I'm pretty sure all the lifters have oil in them by now.
The tick is barely noticeable at idle and can only be heard from inside the truck with everything off, eg fan blower motor/radio ect.

If you walk outside with the hood open it can't be heard unless I rev the engine a bit.
It's consistent now unlike before with all the noisy lifters.

I'm done with it for now, I've got a Jag I have to put back together before I carry out any other major engine work.

Or tear into again, remove the heads (starting with the suspect side) oil pan and do an in-situ repair and just replace the one piston and very probably the connecting rod.
Hate working on engines like that though...

Or get a hold of a short block from the junk yard and rebuild that.
Glad I didn't sell my old B2200 yet.
This sucks !

Last edited by Jeff R 1; 08-13-2016 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 08-13-2016
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Consider it a learning experience. We're not born knowing everything. If were were, this forum wouldn't exist, lol.
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Old 08-13-2016
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I'm still not totally convinced that the bottom end is damaged.
With my old B2200, the first time I put new lifters in, I didn't prime them and it took days before the noise stopped. It could have even been a week...
Later they started making noise again, so I went back in, this time with a new set, I pumped them up hard and the engine was quiet at first start.

I'm thinking that I should have done the same here.

I'm also thinking that one of the lifters is partially blocked or defective.
I came across a another forum where the check valve spring was not put in.
From then on that guy always checked his new lifters for factory screw ups.

I'm going to talk to "Chuck" at my trusted machine shop and see what he has to say.
I've been dealing with him for years _ I'll let him listen too it.

I don't know what a bad wrist pin sounds like, but I know what lifter noise is and it sure sounds like that.

In the old days one would run the engine with out the cam covers on and feel with your thumb to tell which one was making the noise.
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Old 08-14-2016
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After engine is warmed up, remove 1 spark plug wire at a time and start engine.
Rev it up to see if noise is still there.
Repeat for all cylinders.

If noise stops or is reduced to almost gone then that cylinder with no spark is the one that has piston/connecting rod issue.

Valve train noise won't change with no spark because it is a mechanical issue not dependent on cylinder firing.

Piston/wrist pin/connecting rod noises are loudest when cylinder fires as that increases the load on those parts, when load is removed, no spark, then noise will disappear or be barely audible.
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Old 08-14-2016
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Thanks for that RON ! I would have never thought of that.
I was planning on going into the valve train and checking each lifter one at a time, but your plan will save me many hours.
Plus the fact that it's really hot here so working outside isn't the most fun thing right now.
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Old 08-14-2016
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Well, good news, the bottom end appears to be fine, the sound remained unchanged through the test.

Slightly bent valve stem not seating correctly on the rocker arm ?
Accompanied with a damaged valve guide ?
A slightly bent valve head ( not sure if it would make that much noise though and if it was bent, the compression would be very little) ?

Lack of oil getting to the noisy lifter ?
Defective lifter (unlikely but possible) ?

Blocked oil gallery, which brings another question, does the oil gallery to the lifters flow around the cavity on each lifter, or is there a single internal line on each side of the block feeding each lifter independently ?

I plan on removing the valve covers and using a valve spring compressor to inspect each stem.
And of course removing all the spark plugs so I can rotate the engine by hand to check for free play when the valves are totally closed.
I'll do this when the engine is cold as it makes the most noise.

Sort of like fining the needle in a hay stack, but something that makes that much noise shouldn't be too hard to find.
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Old 08-20-2016
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Third time's the charm _ not this time.
Took in apart down to the lower intake manifold and did more checking.
It's getting lots of oil in the gallery, I took the synchronizer out and turned the oil pump by hand and there was lots oil with one of the lifters removed.
I didn't think that was the issue any way as the rockers had lots of oil puddled in them.

I removed the valve springs on the cylinder with the low compression and the stems were not bent, nor could I find any cracks in the rocker arms on that cylinder.

The only thing that I can think off is the valve head is very slightly bent and it's not quite striking the valve seat squarely _ that's where the "tick" sound is coming from.
That would also explain the slightly lower compression on that cylinder.

I think the Seafoam may have caused a back fire causing the piston to come in contact with the valve just enough to tweak it.
The tolerances would have to be pretty tight for this to happen.

??????????????

The only thing that I'm certain off is that it's top end, I did Ron's test again, just to be sure, and there was no change in the sound.
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Old 10-08-2016
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An update, looks lie bottom end after all _ bugger all !!

The valves are not bent, or rather one valve bent, but they do need a regrind that's for sure, the badly varnished lifters weren't allowing them to close properly and they are badly pitted and worn.

I turned the engine over by hand and took note how far the pistons travelled to the top of the block.
At this point I only have the drivers head off, but the rear piston is not coming up as far as the other two. (that would explain why there is only 140 psi on that bore)
The front and middle pistons come almost to the top of the block, while the rear is shy of about 3/32nds of an inch.
Looks like the connecting rod is bent and the ticking noise is coming from the wrist pin as I am sure it has damaged the piston.
I suppose it is possible that the rod is OK and the wrist pin has "ovaled" the hole where it fits into the piston _ all this would have to be checked off course.

Haven't decided to rebuild the bottom or just drop the pan (if that's even possible with the engine in-situ) and replace the piston and rod (and bearings of course).

One more thing, is there a drain plug for the block somewhere ?

Last edited by Jeff R 1; 10-08-2016 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 10-08-2016
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I read this entire post. The idea of sea foam makes me cringe. I've seen it used on you tube. Only recently. When I got my Ranger a few weeks or so ago. I started doing some of my own engine truck work. So I'm greener than grass.
The only thing that pops into my head. I don't know if this is even an option. Totally pulling the engine apart. Degreaseing cleaning everything. I mean I don't know if thats how things are done. There are rods or parts that are bent. I would if able replace those. Then put all the good stuff back in the engine. Like a total rebuild or something. I just think trying to find areas to fix might miss others. If you want to laugh at me thats fine. I just come wanting to help. I feel for you Jeff.
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Old 10-08-2016
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The rear drivers piston is the only one at 140 psi and the rest are at 150/160.
The bad valve seats/valves accounts for the variation from 150 to 160.
With that said the one at 140 is the only one that has sustained damage.
When I get in there I'll have a look at the crank, but I can't see the crank being damaged _ maybe the big end bearing, but not the crank.
The soft aluminum piston would take the brunt of the damage.

Parts are cheap, Rock-auto wants 22.00$ for the piston and 36.00$ for the rod.

I think that's what I'm going to do, just replace the damaged bits for now, I just don't feel like getting into a complete bottom end rebuild.
Plus the fact that it doesn't need it, the cross hatch pattern is still clearly visible with no trace of a ridge at the top of the bore.
It looks like it was rebuilt a few years ago; certainly not 17 years ago.

The part that really gets me is that I'm not a green horn at this, I've worked on some of the most complex and expensive engines over the years.
It never even occurred to me that something like this could happen...
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Old 10-08-2016
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Ok it sounds like you are better off. Rock auto is a pretty good site. I'd go for it. I was thinking the insides were all mucked up. Can't wait to hear you up and running.
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Old 10-08-2016
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Getting the oil pan off may be fun.
I went through the manual and it's kind of vague, it says for 2000 and later models the transmission will have to be removed.
I looked at the bolt pattern and there doesn't look like there are any at the back, but it's hard to tell.
The pan appears to be "lipped" underneath this dust cover that's attached to the bell housing.
I'll see if I can find some photos of it.

EDIT:
Doesn't seem so bad.
The starter will have to be removed to gain access to the pan bolts on that side.
Everything is off the engine anyway, the rad too, so raising it should be fairly easy.
Just have to get enough clearance from the front cross member and the oil pick-up.

Last edited by Jeff R 1; 10-08-2016 at 08:42 PM.
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