Torsion Bar Cranking
#28
09-28-2009
^ should be because the upper arms are shorter as stated by op, and have the balljoint set further back then the bottom. when the lower is moved down the upper must follow but due to its size must make up for the length traveled by the lower by creating steeper downward angle which would pull the tops of the spindles in and "in" camber is neg camber. i do not own a torsion bar truck so i could be wrong
#29
09-28-2009
#32
10-13-2009
#33
01-06-2010
let him crank his bars and find out for himself when he has to replace the tires,,
funny thing about the arc of a sla suspension, the arcs are not the same size,, so, tippage occurs,,,
also , don't even mention the fact that the tie rods will be affected here too, they arc as well, causing toe in or toe out conditions,
crank bars = alignment time,,
funny thing about the arc of a sla suspension, the arcs are not the same size,, so, tippage occurs,,,
also , don't even mention the fact that the tie rods will be affected here too, they arc as well, causing toe in or toe out conditions,
crank bars = alignment time,,
#34
02-04-2010
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Theres been a LOT of threads in regards to torsion bars lately. Crank them, uncrank them.. What I feel is lacking is a basic understanding of what happens to the suspension geometry when either is done.
Contrare to popular belief, Your front wheels do NOT travel in a perfectly vertical direction. They travel in an Arc..
When something effects one of the control arms, Laws of physics and trig show there is an effect on the upper arm. If one stays constant, the other must as well. For every action to one, there is an equal reaction to the other.
When the lower arm is forced downward, the upper will move downward as well. The opposite also happens, when the lower is forced upwards, the upper moves in the same direction as well. The Upper arm has a constant value. Its not going to shorten nor lengthen, thus when the torsion bars are cranked, the top of the tire will move outward. When the tension is let off the torsion bar, the top of the tire will move inward. The Axis of the upper arm is a constant. Eccentric's or ' Cams ' can be used on the upper arms to move the pivoting points but after being ' aligned ' or ' adjusted ', they become constant once more.
So long as both arms are the same weight, with the exact same balljoint location, the wheel WOULD travel vertically. Such is not the case with Ranger Trucks on Torsion bars. The Upper Balljoints sit a full inch and a half inside the vertical position of the lower arms. The offset is provided by the deflection angle of the spindles themselves for tire clearance.
If you look at the top of the spindle in this pic..
.. Its clearly seen how the spindle joggs inward in its design.
The lower control arms are MUCH longer from their pivoting point then the uppers ( roughly 5.25 inches SAE ).
If the arms were completely Parallel to one another on a horizontal plane, they COULD have a straight vertical travel. Unfortunatly, this isn;t how they were built.
Theres many angles to the front suspension. If ONE is effected, they all are..
Even though this picture depicts body roll, it also shows the suspension as to where its ' moving parts ' are located/effected.
Lets apply math here.. in this picture..
The torsion bars are used to change the vector angle of the lower control arm. This will change the geometry/angle of point ' c' . ' Lifting ' the front end makes angle ' c ' smaller, lowering makes it bigger. BOTH have an effect/impact on the surface area of your tire, its contact patch, and can cause unever wear OR pre-mature failures of other suspension components.
Torsion bars have a rating that is calculated into the geometry of the suspensions design. Weight of the vehicle and tire size have a mathematical value. Tire rubbing, turning radius and other factors are also tossed in to the equation.
ANY changes made to the torsion bar be it tightening, loosening or changing bars themselves should be followed by an alignment to put the geometry back into proper functioning fashion.
Hope this helps.
Contrare to popular belief, Your front wheels do NOT travel in a perfectly vertical direction. They travel in an Arc..
When something effects one of the control arms, Laws of physics and trig show there is an effect on the upper arm. If one stays constant, the other must as well. For every action to one, there is an equal reaction to the other.
When the lower arm is forced downward, the upper will move downward as well. The opposite also happens, when the lower is forced upwards, the upper moves in the same direction as well. The Upper arm has a constant value. Its not going to shorten nor lengthen, thus when the torsion bars are cranked, the top of the tire will move outward. When the tension is let off the torsion bar, the top of the tire will move inward. The Axis of the upper arm is a constant. Eccentric's or ' Cams ' can be used on the upper arms to move the pivoting points but after being ' aligned ' or ' adjusted ', they become constant once more.
So long as both arms are the same weight, with the exact same balljoint location, the wheel WOULD travel vertically. Such is not the case with Ranger Trucks on Torsion bars. The Upper Balljoints sit a full inch and a half inside the vertical position of the lower arms. The offset is provided by the deflection angle of the spindles themselves for tire clearance.
If you look at the top of the spindle in this pic..
.. Its clearly seen how the spindle joggs inward in its design.
The lower control arms are MUCH longer from their pivoting point then the uppers ( roughly 5.25 inches SAE ).
If the arms were completely Parallel to one another on a horizontal plane, they COULD have a straight vertical travel. Unfortunatly, this isn;t how they were built.
Theres many angles to the front suspension. If ONE is effected, they all are..
Even though this picture depicts body roll, it also shows the suspension as to where its ' moving parts ' are located/effected.
Lets apply math here.. in this picture..
The torsion bars are used to change the vector angle of the lower control arm. This will change the geometry/angle of point ' c' . ' Lifting ' the front end makes angle ' c ' smaller, lowering makes it bigger. BOTH have an effect/impact on the surface area of your tire, its contact patch, and can cause unever wear OR pre-mature failures of other suspension components.
Torsion bars have a rating that is calculated into the geometry of the suspensions design. Weight of the vehicle and tire size have a mathematical value. Tire rubbing, turning radius and other factors are also tossed in to the equation.
ANY changes made to the torsion bar be it tightening, loosening or changing bars themselves should be followed by an alignment to put the geometry back into proper functioning fashion.
Hope this helps.
2. awesome info im saving it so i can sound smart like you sometime
3. what you are saying is no matter where its torsin keys on cranking the bars long as its aligned
#35
02-07-2010
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to compensate for the wheel camber from torshonbar cranking. they sell cam wasers for the uper (A) or controle arm. only aplys on certen models. i know they are made for 98,99,00 4x4 ranngers.if you have a nother modle just call a tire or suspension store and they can tell you if your truck has the ability to swapn out the cam washers. they are about 50 bucks. :)
#36
03-25-2010
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OK, so i wanna put blocks in the back of my ranger, and crank the torsion bar in front? my truck is 2wd, is it going to be ok after getting an alignment checked? i have not seen a definate answer.
I see a lot of people saying it is fine, and a lot of people saying it wears out tires & front end. Are these people going off roading and such and is that why it puts so much wear?
With my 2wd truck i am not going to be doing any real off roading, i just wanna get a little more hight in the vehicle.
I DO NOT want to crank my torsion bar if its gonna wreck my front end, as if i wear everything out, i dont have money readily availiable to replace the parts.
Thanks
I see a lot of people saying it is fine, and a lot of people saying it wears out tires & front end. Are these people going off roading and such and is that why it puts so much wear?
With my 2wd truck i am not going to be doing any real off roading, i just wanna get a little more hight in the vehicle.
I DO NOT want to crank my torsion bar if its gonna wreck my front end, as if i wear everything out, i dont have money readily availiable to replace the parts.
Thanks
#37
06-16-2010
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It's important to have your alignment check after torsion bar cranked, it not only effect the control arms, but the tierods too. Not all the truck models react the same way after a t-bar crank.
If you crank too much, the upper balljoints will wear quicker because of their angle. But if you crank just to get the front at the same height as the rear you will be fine.
I work at an alignment shop, and I've never use a cam washer to adjust the camber. I take off the 2 locking plates if they're still there and put a 1/2 flat washer. You just have to tighten it very well.
If you crank too much, the upper balljoints will wear quicker because of their angle. But if you crank just to get the front at the same height as the rear you will be fine.
I work at an alignment shop, and I've never use a cam washer to adjust the camber. I take off the 2 locking plates if they're still there and put a 1/2 flat washer. You just have to tighten it very well.
#38
06-16-2010
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#39
06-29-2010
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After reading, and re-reading threads...
So what is the clear consensus, if any?
Do routine wear/larger tires/additional weight from brush guard contribute to sag (more rake)?
Will a moderate adjustment fix it without incurring too much stress on the mentioned parts? If so, what is really the point of the replacement OEM keys with the larger ones?
So what is the clear consensus, if any?
Do routine wear/larger tires/additional weight from brush guard contribute to sag (more rake)?
Will a moderate adjustment fix it without incurring too much stress on the mentioned parts? If so, what is really the point of the replacement OEM keys with the larger ones?
#40
09-21-2010
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No, he is totally right. I cranked mine and have excessive wear on the inner edge of the tires, as well as cupping. It can even result in the bar braking due to excessive stress. New keys which re index the bar are the best choice, then an alignment.
#42
09-21-2010
#43
09-21-2010
#45
09-21-2010
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You can buy a tool or make your own out of an old C-clamp by removing the swivel cup off the end. Remove the key cover, mark the location of the bolt which holds the key in it's stock hight/location, Place the C-clamp in place to hold the key and remove the bolt. Slowly release the tension from the bar/key, once the key is loose, knock the bar forward and remove the key. Reverse the order to install the new re indexed key. Then get an alignment, don't get scammed into a 4 wheel alignment either.
#46
09-27-2010
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#47
10-20-2010
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#49
10-21-2010
#50
10-21-2010
