huge power loss, hot plugs and no codes
#1
huge power loss, hot plugs and no codes
so have 1k on a new rebuild and today was the first long drive. 300 miles. so it was doing well but could feel it wasnt all there. by the end of the trip low end wasnt great but it felt like it had a govoner at 3500rpm. even though it reved up to 5k it never went any faster if that makes sense.
never got any check engine light and no stored codes, no misfires, engine temp never over 185 or tranny over 178.. but i did notice in the monitors that the evaporation system wasnt ready yet. i havent cleared the codes for at least a week and usually they are all ready the same day after a few drives around town. so i find that a bit odd.
so after i got home i checked compression and all were good between 145-155 but plugs for 1/5/6 were white.. like really white. 3 was a bit white and 2 and 4 were fairly normal. no coolant loss, or noticeable cross contamination of any fluids.
injectors maybe? im expecting some misfires and lean codes pretty soon
never got any check engine light and no stored codes, no misfires, engine temp never over 185 or tranny over 178.. but i did notice in the monitors that the evaporation system wasnt ready yet. i havent cleared the codes for at least a week and usually they are all ready the same day after a few drives around town. so i find that a bit odd.
so after i got home i checked compression and all were good between 145-155 but plugs for 1/5/6 were white.. like really white. 3 was a bit white and 2 and 4 were fairly normal. no coolant loss, or noticeable cross contamination of any fluids.
injectors maybe? im expecting some misfires and lean codes pretty soon
#2
RF Veteran
iTrader: (1)
Since it isn't on all plugs I would say leaking valve guide seals
If it was strictly a Lean issue, i.e. low fuel pressure or faulty computer calculations, then I would expect all the plugs to show that, or just one Bank(faulty O2).
Fuel additives can also cause that but it usually would have a redish tint and of course be on all the spark plugs
How's the oil use?
Won't be much loss but a little if it is oil getting into cylinder from intake valve guide seals.
And even a little oil causes a slow burn so much less power.
You could clean the plugs and put them back in, disconnect the coil for a No Start
Unhook the Big air tube on the upper intake
Put your hand over the intake port and have someone crank the engine over
Or block that air port and crank the engine
What you are trying to do is to increase the Vacuum in the intake
Normal cranking gives about 3 to 4" of vacuum
Blocking the intake air port increases that closer to 15"
That should suck in any oil from leaking seals
Pull out the sparks plugs and have a look
You are also looking for Fuel on the tips as well, should be equal across all spark plug tips
If the currently effected cylinders are dryer then could be those injectors are suspect.
Oil residue of course would indicate leaking seals
Could be some seals have popped up and can be pushed back down
If it was strictly a Lean issue, i.e. low fuel pressure or faulty computer calculations, then I would expect all the plugs to show that, or just one Bank(faulty O2).
Fuel additives can also cause that but it usually would have a redish tint and of course be on all the spark plugs
How's the oil use?
Won't be much loss but a little if it is oil getting into cylinder from intake valve guide seals.
And even a little oil causes a slow burn so much less power.
You could clean the plugs and put them back in, disconnect the coil for a No Start
Unhook the Big air tube on the upper intake
Put your hand over the intake port and have someone crank the engine over
Or block that air port and crank the engine
What you are trying to do is to increase the Vacuum in the intake
Normal cranking gives about 3 to 4" of vacuum
Blocking the intake air port increases that closer to 15"
That should suck in any oil from leaking seals
Pull out the sparks plugs and have a look
You are also looking for Fuel on the tips as well, should be equal across all spark plug tips
If the currently effected cylinders are dryer then could be those injectors are suspect.
Oil residue of course would indicate leaking seals
Could be some seals have popped up and can be pushed back down
Last edited by RonD; 05-20-2017 at 11:12 AM.
#3
when i rebuilt the motor i had an issue with seals lifting up and riding on the valve stem so i thought for sure that you were right on the money but i pulled the valve cover on bacnk 2 since its easier and had the worst plugs but to my suprise all the seals were in place so stuck it all back together and didnt bother with bank 1..
i read that you shouldnt clean platnium plugs that theres some coating on them?? not sure thats true because i also read you should never gap them..
going to try that vacuum test tomorrow and see what it turns up. thanks for the great testing idea gives me some direction to go in so im not just scratching my head looking at it lol
i read that you shouldnt clean platnium plugs that theres some coating on them?? not sure thats true because i also read you should never gap them..
going to try that vacuum test tomorrow and see what it turns up. thanks for the great testing idea gives me some direction to go in so im not just scratching my head looking at it lol
#4
RF Veteran
iTrader: (1)
Well if wire brushing a platinum(or iridium) spark plug caused any damage then I wouldn't hold up much hope for that coating lasting inside a cylinder with 1,000+ explosions per minute(2,000RPM) in 1,200+ degF temperatures
If you want to FILE the tip and center then yes that would remove the coating
So clean away
And yes it is fine to gap any spark plug, the actual "coating" is on the tip or center, not on the part that bends when you gap a spark plug.
On a Fords Waste Spark System(coil pack) you need to use either regular copper/nickle or DOUBLE Platinum, single platinum is a waste of money as one bank will wear out the same as regular copper/nickle
The 3.0l heads changed in 1999, from 8mm valve stems to 7mm valve stems
Read here on 3.0l the changes over the years and what to look for: Ford Ranger II 3.0 liter Engines
On a 2003 the heads may have been changed if you haven't had this vehicle from new, so just check what valve stem size you have and what valve stem seals you got for the rebuild
If you want to FILE the tip and center then yes that would remove the coating
So clean away
And yes it is fine to gap any spark plug, the actual "coating" is on the tip or center, not on the part that bends when you gap a spark plug.
On a Fords Waste Spark System(coil pack) you need to use either regular copper/nickle or DOUBLE Platinum, single platinum is a waste of money as one bank will wear out the same as regular copper/nickle
The 3.0l heads changed in 1999, from 8mm valve stems to 7mm valve stems
Read here on 3.0l the changes over the years and what to look for: Ford Ranger II 3.0 liter Engines
On a 2003 the heads may have been changed if you haven't had this vehicle from new, so just check what valve stem size you have and what valve stem seals you got for the rebuild
#5
yeah i didnt think it was bad to clean them.. i did the test covering the intake and cranking it over and i think it might have been to warm still because i only got a little bit of gas on the first 2 plugs and the the rest were pretty dry with minimal oil on the threads.. im guessing the gas evaped off before i got to them..
i dumped a can of seafoam in the tank to see if that helps at all.. i feel like it helped out a little bit of but not sure if it really did.. it still feels like im driving with the ebrake on..
the heads are aftermarket made by cific.. they have the 7mm valves with tapered springs ill have to go check again but i think i still have the seals that came off and an extra set of the ones i put on so ill go compare and make sure they are the same..
since were talking about heads i may have already talked about this in a another thread but are the ffv heads different than std? i came across a a picture of some heads and info saying that the ffv heads have a heart shaped 47cc combustion chamber. thats 2 cc smaller than 49cc std heads. reason being that ethanol prefers higher compression. but ive never seen any ffv heads that are any different than std for sale on ebay or any other source that they exist.
i dumped a can of seafoam in the tank to see if that helps at all.. i feel like it helped out a little bit of but not sure if it really did.. it still feels like im driving with the ebrake on..
the heads are aftermarket made by cific.. they have the 7mm valves with tapered springs ill have to go check again but i think i still have the seals that came off and an extra set of the ones i put on so ill go compare and make sure they are the same..
since were talking about heads i may have already talked about this in a another thread but are the ffv heads different than std? i came across a a picture of some heads and info saying that the ffv heads have a heart shaped 47cc combustion chamber. thats 2 cc smaller than 49cc std heads. reason being that ethanol prefers higher compression. but ive never seen any ffv heads that are any different than std for sale on ebay or any other source that they exist.
#6
so im an idiot and at the time i didnt even think about it but when i saw at idle my maf reading was .7 and i know it use to be .5 it clicked.. when i was porting the heads and doing the half shaft throttle body mod i thought it was a good idea to open up the maf to breath better.. i already know.. bad bad bad.. i did what i could to get it back to the way it was and it helped getting down to a .6 but still not right.
i ordered a maf sensor and housing on ebay but for a std 00 and mines a ffv 03.. are they different? and with ported heads/intake semi polished ex manifolds and halfshaft tb are there any better options?
i ordered a maf sensor and housing on ebay but for a std 00 and mines a ffv 03.. are they different? and with ported heads/intake semi polished ex manifolds and halfshaft tb are there any better options?
#7
ok so still having the no power problem and its been slowly but steadily degrading so that its tough just to merge on the freeway at 65... it will go 65 just takes forever to get there..
let me know if this thought is rational of if im retarded..
rebuild engine had pretty steady LTFT +/- 4 with conventianal oil and the 3rd oil change about 3 i switched to synthetic and LTFT -3/-6 and seemed to run a bit worse that before.
then i started thinkning about when i built the motor i thought the end gap for the rings was a little high.. i think was around .20 or .020 or .002.. i remember said max was 16 something and it was 20 something.. so went back to the shop where i had the block bored and said these are the wrong rings.. he assured me that these were the correct rings for a .020 over borded engine and wouldnt make a different in performance unless it was a high performance build.. i wasnt real happy but i used them anyway against my better judgment.
could it be possible that switching to synthetic burns more oil? and could that cause the engine to think its running rich and it subtract fuel? seems to run a bit better cold and i also get a good puff of smoke when i start up if i drove it about .5-3 hrs ago.. also plugs run hot..
i really dont want to have to change the rings so hoping you all say im nuts and that its a far fetched theory...
let me know if this thought is rational of if im retarded..
rebuild engine had pretty steady LTFT +/- 4 with conventianal oil and the 3rd oil change about 3 i switched to synthetic and LTFT -3/-6 and seemed to run a bit worse that before.
then i started thinkning about when i built the motor i thought the end gap for the rings was a little high.. i think was around .20 or .020 or .002.. i remember said max was 16 something and it was 20 something.. so went back to the shop where i had the block bored and said these are the wrong rings.. he assured me that these were the correct rings for a .020 over borded engine and wouldnt make a different in performance unless it was a high performance build.. i wasnt real happy but i used them anyway against my better judgment.
could it be possible that switching to synthetic burns more oil? and could that cause the engine to think its running rich and it subtract fuel? seems to run a bit better cold and i also get a good puff of smoke when i start up if i drove it about .5-3 hrs ago.. also plugs run hot..
i really dont want to have to change the rings so hoping you all say im nuts and that its a far fetched theory...
#8
RF Veteran
iTrader: (1)
The white spark plug tips are a sign of Lean condition, if its not white ash which could be oil residue.
Lean almost always causes pinging/knocking, and you don't mention that?
Are you losing oil?
Simple test would be to use the engine as brake when going down hill, shift to lower gear.
This causes very high vacuum in the engine, so will suck in any oil from rings or valve guide seals that are leaking.
At the bottom of the hill watch rear view mirror and step on the gas pedal, if you are leaking oil into cylinders then you will see a big puff of grey/black smoke as the leaked in oil is burned
V6 engine has two upstream O2 sensors, one on each bank
Each supplies the PCM with lean/rich data on that one bank, all 3 cylinders combined
If one fuel injector(cylinder) is running Rich then PCM reduces injector open time on that whole bank, which could cause Lean conditions in the other two cylinders
On warm up O2 sensors are ignored, they must be heated up to 650degF to work
And PCM also runs engine in Choke Mode while it warms up, Rich mix with high idle
When were upstream O2 sensors last changed?
They tend to last 100k miles, unless engine problems foul them, they use a Chemical Reaction to detect Oxygen Levels in the exhaust, so wear out the same as batteries do as the chemicals get used up
I would remove all spark plugs
Redo compression test, 3.0l runs 9.3:1 ratio
At sea level to 2,000ft elevation you use the 18 multiplier with compression ratio
18 x 9.3 = 167.4psi
So 167 psi would be expected, when testing with all spark plugs removed and good battery cranking starter motor
Compression is power, as compression goes down so does power, like winding a rubber band, the tighter it is wound the more power it can release
Once compression is taken off the table as a non-issue test injectors
Clean and put spark plugs back in, disconnect Coil Packs 4 wire plug in, so no spark
Crank engine over a few times
Pull out spark plugs and compare "wetness" see if all injectors are working as they should.
LTFT takes awhile to balance out, synthetic oil means less friction so better MPG on most engines, so leaner overall fuel mix, but should come back to +/- 4 over time as PCM "learns" engine changes
The downstream O2 sensor(behind Cats), is used for LTFT
If possible watch STFT live while cruising at a steady speed, PCM will switch to Rich and then back every few seconds to keep Cat converters working
Lean almost always causes pinging/knocking, and you don't mention that?
Are you losing oil?
Simple test would be to use the engine as brake when going down hill, shift to lower gear.
This causes very high vacuum in the engine, so will suck in any oil from rings or valve guide seals that are leaking.
At the bottom of the hill watch rear view mirror and step on the gas pedal, if you are leaking oil into cylinders then you will see a big puff of grey/black smoke as the leaked in oil is burned
V6 engine has two upstream O2 sensors, one on each bank
Each supplies the PCM with lean/rich data on that one bank, all 3 cylinders combined
If one fuel injector(cylinder) is running Rich then PCM reduces injector open time on that whole bank, which could cause Lean conditions in the other two cylinders
On warm up O2 sensors are ignored, they must be heated up to 650degF to work
And PCM also runs engine in Choke Mode while it warms up, Rich mix with high idle
When were upstream O2 sensors last changed?
They tend to last 100k miles, unless engine problems foul them, they use a Chemical Reaction to detect Oxygen Levels in the exhaust, so wear out the same as batteries do as the chemicals get used up
I would remove all spark plugs
Redo compression test, 3.0l runs 9.3:1 ratio
At sea level to 2,000ft elevation you use the 18 multiplier with compression ratio
18 x 9.3 = 167.4psi
So 167 psi would be expected, when testing with all spark plugs removed and good battery cranking starter motor
Compression is power, as compression goes down so does power, like winding a rubber band, the tighter it is wound the more power it can release
Once compression is taken off the table as a non-issue test injectors
Clean and put spark plugs back in, disconnect Coil Packs 4 wire plug in, so no spark
Crank engine over a few times
Pull out spark plugs and compare "wetness" see if all injectors are working as they should.
LTFT takes awhile to balance out, synthetic oil means less friction so better MPG on most engines, so leaner overall fuel mix, but should come back to +/- 4 over time as PCM "learns" engine changes
The downstream O2 sensor(behind Cats), is used for LTFT
If possible watch STFT live while cruising at a steady speed, PCM will switch to Rich and then back every few seconds to keep Cat converters working
Last edited by RonD; 09-23-2017 at 10:10 AM.
#9
thanks RonD thats helpful info.. ill do another compression test and check plugs.. it does make a werid clicking noise when it get up about 5000rpm but hard to tell where its coming from while driving with all the other noise at high rpm.
how easy is it to burn the seals? when i first started the engine up i missed an oil galley plug so the top end had very low pressure about 2-5psi for about 3 2 min runs between 1000-2500 rpm.. i did oil them during assembly
i should probaly change an O2 sensor since i think 1 is original.. i did repace bank 2 sensor when i melted it maybe 3 yrs when i had pluggged cat and had to drop the exhaust of the manifold to get home..
how easy is it to burn the seals? when i first started the engine up i missed an oil galley plug so the top end had very low pressure about 2-5psi for about 3 2 min runs between 1000-2500 rpm.. i did oil them during assembly
i should probaly change an O2 sensor since i think 1 is original.. i did repace bank 2 sensor when i melted it maybe 3 yrs when i had pluggged cat and had to drop the exhaust of the manifold to get home..
#10
I had a problem with my 03 Edge 3.0L. @ 3500 RPM it started cutting out/missing. After the obligatory changing out of plugs/plug wires, etc. I found a Tech Bulletin noting that there was a problem with the Cam Positioning sensor that made the truck cut out at 3500 RPM. I changed it and all was well. Good luck
#11
I had a problem with my 03 Edge 3.0L. @ 3500 RPM it started cutting out/missing. After the obligatory changing out of plugs/plug wires, etc. I found a Tech Bulletin noting that there was a problem with the Cam Positioning sensor that made the truck cut out at 3500 RPM. I changed it and all was well. Good luck
yeah i had that same issue a few years ago with was missing and bucking when merging on the freeway.. and did the same basic tune up.. plugs wires fuel filter... replacing the cps fixed it.. im keeping an ear out for that chirp still since the dormans are supposed to wear out quick from what ive read.. but its still going after 20k...
#13
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