Ask me tuning questions - Page 11 - Ranger-Forums - The Ultimate Ford Ranger Resource


4.0L OHV & SOHC V6 Tech General discussion of 4.0L OHV and SOHC V6 Ford Ranger engines.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #251  
Old 10-05-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post

I have a family member that is a Ford Employee and he told me exactly why I melted those pistons. My car was tuned on a hot summer 95 degree day with a AF around 12 to 1 then beat-on in October in 38 degree weather. The difference on a cold day with dense air changed my AF to around 13.2 to 1 on a boosted engine...boom. I didnt hear any detonation at all when this happened.
Your understanding is not correct. Sorry but it's just not.

The MAF and barometer sensors will both correct fuel for DA differences. (density altitude) Timing vs ocatane is most likely your real issue.

If a guy has a programmer and is beating on his car I'd suggest doing what I always do no matter what car I'm racing. I run a splash of higher octane fuel.

As one whos been exposed to OEMs (first hand) I'll tell you what I've seen over and over throughout the years. People think that because they bought xx octane they think that's what is actually in the tank. I've seen 87 octane come out of 93, I've even seen octane tested as low as 82 when the owner thought it was 87.
If your gonna go WOT you need to buy fuel at a station that sells a lot. Then.. put enough in the tank to make it at least 25% higher octane. (1-to-4gal ratio)

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 10-05-2009
StratGT's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 54
^^^^The Ford Engineer said it ran too lean BUT...the guy who re-built my engine told me my motor was worst case of detonation he's ever seen when he pulled out those melted pistons. He said it was a combination of running lean and too much timing. However, I was running 110 unleaded race fuel at the time for safety reasons. Appearantly, the novice Tuner forgot that you can't run 28 degrees of timing on a boosted engine. For the Record...Alot of Tuners make big mistakes that cost customers BIG money.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 10-05-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
btw, I was a "ford engineer" for years. And if you knew what I knew.. you'd be reluctant to use that term. I am.

A huge lean out from the tune (and a half a brain by the driver).. and you'd have backed off because of the power drop. At least.. I would have.
Racing is much more than standing on the throttle and hoping it doesn't blow.
There are signs.. lots of them. Get in tune with your engine and watch the A/F guage like a hawk.

Running lean and detonation are two different things. And they can be caused by multiple things besides the tune. Actually.. I'd look at MANY other things long before I'd look at the tune for the root cause of leaning out a engine. Fuel supply being the most important. What was your A/F at the time of destruction?

I will agree that because someone has a software tuning license does NOT mean they know what they are doing. In the ranger community I was appaled at the tune I recieved from Henson. I told his it was going lean up top. He just denyed it... amazing. (I now tune myself)


28deg of timing on 110 and a relatively short stroke motor is higher than I'd run w/o tuning the engine on a engine dyno. If the engine is being supplied an adequate amount of fuel though I'd go into the 24-25 area on a 4.6L.
My 5.4L is a longer stroke than thr 4.6L, its boosted to 14psi, and has nitrous on top of that. Running a 50/50 mix of 93oct / 100oct fuel I run 22degrees of timing w/a hint of detonation. If I were to run straight 110 I'd bump it up into the 25-26Deg area.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 10-05-2009
StratGT's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 54
I use that term Ford Engineer out of respect for him so I don't have to use his name, that's all. He's a smart guy and when he saw my pistons he said even forged pistons melt when push to that level.

I've been racing for quite a while, over 25 years to be exact. All new modern motors with delicate rods and pistons combined with power adders require an expert tune before a car can be pushed to it's limits. When your driving a car that pulls it's front wheels off the ground, it's not always easy to stare at the A/F gauge, hence why the car spent 4 hours on the dyno. In the end something was overlooked. I'm not too happy about the "half a brain by the driver" comment. My car never shook or made any strange or bad sounds until I came to a stop, then we saw the smoke. Sometimes things happened really fast and my motor was gone.

The end result was a matter of a tuning error. Something was overlooked and the timing was advanced waaaay to high. Many US engine builders told me on a boosted modular 4.6 2V engine, they wouldn't go over 18 maybe 20 degrees of timing even on race fuel. Live and learn for me....and I've learned.

I original posted on this thread cause I disagreed with you when you mentioned that you advance your timing until you hear detonation then you back it off....all the top engine builders told me when you hear detonation it's already too late. Tune for worst case senerio and things will be fine.

I read somewhere that you have a Lightning, be careful cause I've seen those blow up too.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 10-12-2009
leadfoot's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 894
Hey Rich, When my ranger is lugging in fifth gear up a hill at 45 mph it will make a jerking motion a few times, depending on how long the hill is. It has been doing this even in its stock configuration, I bought new plug wires which help. Now this problem has came back with the truck tuned, maybe bad gas but I want a permanent solution. This is something to do with the motor but im not sure if you call it detonation, missing, or stumbling? Any way, how do I go about fixing this? Do I remove EGR flow, Spark, or both?
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 10-12-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
I original posted on this thread cause I disagreed with you when you mentioned that you advance your timing until you hear detonation then you back it off....
If you keep what I said *in context* then yes I fully stand by that statement.
(subject = stock ford rangers)


Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
...all the top engine builders told me when you hear detonation it's already too late. Tune for worst case senerio and things will be fine.
If were talking about high performance aftermarket engines.. then I agree.
When a engine detonates cylinder pressures get real high real fast. A stock engine generally has quite a high threshhold before it'll spit a rod out the side of the block. Modified ones don't have much room for error. Plus most high-po engines are outfitted with noisy exhaust and/or blowers. So by the time you hear it... like you say. It's too late.

btw, on a hi-po engine you can see detonation by watching spikes in the A/F and little puffs of white-ish smoke out the exhaust. (a useful tip when tuning on stationary dynos)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
I read somewhere that you have a Lightning, be careful cause I've seen those blow up too.
Mine won't blow up from a little too much timing. Check out my engine web page


Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 10-12-2009 at 03:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 10-12-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
Hey Rich, When my ranger is lugging in fifth gear up a hill at 45 mph it will make a jerking motion a few times, depending on how long the hill is. It has been doing this even in its stock configuration, I bought new plug wires which help. Now this problem has came back with the truck tuned, maybe bad gas but I want a permanent solution. This is something to do with the motor but im not sure if you call it detonation, missing, or stumbling? Any way, how do I go about fixing this? Do I remove EGR flow, Spark, or both?
Hum....... I'd want to know how bad the stumble is. Is it just every so often? Or does it get worse with heavier throttle (load)
Is it a dead miss or a loss of power for a moment?

If it's timing alone and the PCM was pulling max spark (-7deg = stock tune) you'd hear it knocking or see KS activity. I've seen old gas and plugged fuel filters do the kind of thing you describe. Old gas mostly.

If it gets worse with load then I'd guess spark strength. Plug gaps too big or maybe a weak coil.. or wires. Something like that. Timing and fuel adjustments really won't change a heavy load stumble caused by a weak spark. You could try reducing timing by 4-5degrees in those rpm areas and see if it makes a difference. That's easy to just try.


IMO I'd try these in this order:
1) Run that fuel down low and fill up at a different station.
2) clean the MAF wire with that special MAF spray.
3) Change the fuel filter.
4) Gap the plugs a little smaller (0.007" -ish)

If none of those work I'd go looking into the coil or wires.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 10-12-2009
StratGT's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 54
Rich, that's an awesome motor your building for your Lightning. I know many people who've had work done at Livernois, all with excellent results.

Have you considered the new TFS 2V heads?? I'm reading some of the results which include a light port job making 260cfm. Great numbers for a 2V head.

Also, like Leadfoot posted...my new Ranger with only 1200 miles on it does the same thing. If I'm going 45 to 60mph in OD and I'm going up hill, the truck starts stumbling (mine truck is new too). I have to down shift into 4th gear and it goes away. Mine's a 5spd auto and I'm thinking a SCT Programmer with a proper tune would help with this, thinking the truck should have down shifted into 4th or unlocked the torque converter allowing it to slip. Could a brand new truck have been delivered with a bad tune. plug, or wire? It doesn't do this in any other gear.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 10-12-2009
leadfoot's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 894
My MAF sensor is clean, new fuel filter and new plug wires. The spark plugs themselves have 10 K on them. However the coil pack is original with 135,000 mies on it. Bad gas is definitely a possibility, it has gotten worse with this tank. When I increase throttle on the hill it usually stumbles, sometimes right before it downshifts.

The problem occurs randomly going up hill in over drive and only a few times, it does not constantly stumble. Removing all EGR flow in that load range helped but it was not a cure. I don't want to remove park in that rpm range. I would like to remove spark in that rpm range within that load range, so would adjusting the boarderline knock table work this way?

StatGT, I could easily change the torque converter to unlock sooner and avoid this problem but I like lugging it in overdrive, it gives me good gas milage. My truck has the power to make it up these hills in overdrive but the stumbling scares me.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 10-13-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
Rich, that's an awesome motor your building for your Lightning. I know many people who've had work done at Livernois, all with excellent results.

Have you considered the new TFS 2V heads?? I'm reading some of the results which include a light port job making 260cfm. Great numbers for a 2V head.
I put the engine in two months ago. Heads are fully preped by fox lake. I'm done spending money for a looong while.

As far as livernois goes. They are good. But compaired to the level of quility I like to achieve.. they are just "ok". I'm beyond **** about part preperation.





Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
Also, like Leadfoot posted...my new Ranger with only 1200 miles on it does the same thing.
That's not good. A new truck doing that... I'd first clear the KAM and make it relearn. (dis-connect the battery, lights & ignition on for 10min, turn off, then re-connect the battery. Then w/o moving the truck I'd fully warm the motor and put it through the idle learn process)
Drive the truck at least two times under the condition your seeing the miss before you call it "not working".

If that doesn't work...I'd try running the fuel down low and changing to a different station.



And you know when it comes to the stock tune on a ranger. I must say I was quite supprised at how crude some areas are. Especially tranny functions.
IMO it's like they never drove the truck to tune PT pressures. You know that annoying clunk at about 17-20mph and backing off the throttle right before it goes from 1st to 3rd? Yep.. pure tuning from ford.



Anyway..... when under a load at PT your in closed loop. Any kind of misfire would almost have to be a weak spark, bad fuel, or maybe a dirty MAF.
I really really don't see anything in the tune that could cause that. I mean.. even when running 87octane with 10% ox fuel the commanded spark is WAY BELOW what the MTB table shows. Shoot.. running 93oct fuel I was upping timing by about 15-20deg in those areas.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #261  
Old 10-13-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
... it has gotten worse with this tank. When I increase throttle on the hill it usually stumbles, sometimes right before it downshifts.
I wonder if your area has changed over to winter fuel? You might try clearing the PCM / KAM like I mentioned in the above post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
I would like to remove spark in that rpm range within that load range, so would adjusting the boarderline knock table work this way?
I really don't think it's timing related. (You might know this.. just posting info in case you don't)
Borderline = commanded
Max allowed = max limit (and I've seen actual exceed this by 2-ish on both the ranger and the Lightning)
MTB = table at which ford saw knock on 87octane under controlled conditions


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
StatGT, I could easily change the torque converter to unlock sooner and avoid this problem but I like lugging it in overdrive, it gives me good gas milage. My truck has the power to make it up these hills in overdrive but the stumbling scares me.
I did the same thing. Except I boosted timing down low and ran 92+ octanes. That power down low is so much nicer than the stupid convertor coming out and the rpms going up. Annoying if you ask me.
btw, ford has the Lightning tune just about spot on. I actually have changed very little even with the HUGE cams I'm running. I must say.. whoever tuned the gen 2 lightnings spent some time in the seat and out in the real world.
But on my 06fx4... I think it was some programmer sitting on a milk crate in india.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 10-15-2009
cchsbuzz19's Avatar
Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2,417
I have a question, I was planning to regear in the next month but the guy I was going to buy the rear axle from sold it from underneath me, So now I'm going to have to wait til Spring most likely, but my question is should I wait to get a tuner until after I regear or does it matter? Cause I know you have to let them know what gears you have when your filling out the information. Sorry if this has already been answered I didn't have time to read through all the posts.

Thanks,
Clay
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 10-15-2009
OVERtheEDGE's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: locust grove georgia
Posts: 1,441
i have the same question too,

also i was wondering how tuning will be for a 4.0 ohv? mods will be air intake, Throtle body spacer, headers, ported and polished heads. (wish i could afford the cam too)
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 10-15-2009
leadfoot's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by OVERtheEDGE View Post
i have the same question too,

also i was wondering how tuning will be for a 4.0 ohv? mods will be air intake, Throtle body spacer, headers, ported and polished heads. (wish i could afford the cam too)
Personally I would choose a new cam over an intake, TB spacer, and headers. I regret not putting in a cam while I had the engine apart.
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old 10-15-2009
OVERtheEDGE's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: locust grove georgia
Posts: 1,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
Personally I would choose a new cam over an intake, TB spacer, and headers. I regret not putting in a cam while I had the engine apart.
oh i got the air intake and tb a long time ago from a friend for cheap. i have been wanting headers though. and underdrive pulleys. but im thinkin a cam is a bit out of my price range at the moment unless i save up longer to do it. plus im gonna need tires soon too.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 10-15-2009
Johnbaum13's Avatar
Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,343
Buy the tuner now. You can always adjust the gear ratio later with the tuner. The reason they ask is so the set the right default, but you can manually choose any ratio when you load the tune into the truck.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 10-15-2009
cchsbuzz19's Avatar
Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnbaum13 View Post
Buy the tuner now. You can always adjust the gear ratio later with the tuner. The reason they ask is so the set the right default, but you can manually choose any ratio when you load the tune into the truck.
Ok so I can load the tunes in the truck and then a couple months later come back and change the gear ratio, cause it might be 2-3 months after I would be getting the tuner that I would be regearing. Thanks for the reply.
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 10-15-2009
leadfoot's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnbaum13 View Post
Buy the tuner now. You can always adjust the gear ratio later with the tuner. The reason they ask is so the set the right default, but you can manually choose any ratio when you load the tune into the truck.
I cannot change my gear ratio through the X-Cal 3. I think it is something to do with my specific year or processor code. The only way that I can change my gear ratio is in the tune file itself using the PRP software. I know not all trucks are like this but It would be a good idea to check and make sure yours isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 10-16-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by cchsbuzz19 View Post
Ok so I can load the tunes in the truck and then a couple months later come back and change the gear ratio, cause it might be 2-3 months after I would be getting the tuner that I would be regearing. Thanks for the reply.
No problem at all. Worst case... the tuner e-mails you a updated tune. It's no biggie at all.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 10-16-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by OVERtheEDGE View Post
i have the same question too,

also i was wondering how tuning will be for a 4.0 ohv? mods will be air intake, Throtle body spacer, headers, ported and polished heads. (wish i could afford the cam too)
Air intake = no changes (unless it's a larger MAF)

Throttle body spacer = no changes

Headers = *if* the 02 sensor is farther downstream there is a transport delay value that needs to be adjusted. Also, headers w/o cats tend to make open loop (WOT) a/f a bit richer. No problem with that, but I'd personally lean up the fuel a hair in the tune.

Ported and polished heads & cam = You'll want to adjust one thing and check another. 1) You'll most likely need to add fuel at WOT 2) You'll need to check that your not hitting 5v on the MAF. If so you'll need to modify the signal with a Dablo MAFia or replace the MAF with a larger unit. Either of these require a new MAF map in the tune!

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 10-16-2009 at 10:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 10-16-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
I cannot change my gear ratio through the X-Cal 3. I think it is something to do with my specific year or processor code. The only way that I can change my gear ratio is in the tune file itself using the PRP software. I know not all trucks are like this but It would be a good idea to check and make sure yours isn't.
I'm not familiar with the x-cal 3. I do know that in the tune you not only have to change the ratio.. but you have to change the max allowed down in the VID block.

btw, I have no idea why but on two different trucks (ranger & Lightning) if I set the tire diameter in the tune... it's never correct. But if I set it with the x-cal 2 my speedo is correct.??? Weird huh? I can set my rotations per mile in the tune and it's wrong. But setting it to the exact same value with the x-cal2 and it works.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 10-16-2009
cchsbuzz19's Avatar
Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
No problem at all. Worst case... the tuner e-mails you a updated tune. It's no biggie at all.

Rich
does it cost anything to get an updated tune sent to me? SCT x-cal tuner is what I'll be getting. So I should probably get the x-cal 2 not 3? Thanks for the help!

Clay
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 10-16-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Most tuners out there have something like a 30day timeframe in which they will provide free tweaks.

I've found that when you already have a x-cal and then call back or to a completely new tuner.. they charge you $50 for a "new tune".

This is partly what drove me to just spend the $300 for the license.

Rich
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 10-16-2009
StratGT's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 54
I hear ya on that one: Many Tuners here in Canada lock the SCT Tuners after you buy them, then when you do a extra mod and need to make some adjustments they want an extra $75 to unlock and make changes to your Programmer then re-lock them.

I'm looking to buy a SCT Programmer with the Ranger tunes installed, then if I do a 4.10 gear, UD pulleys, and exhaust...I can make the necessary adjustments.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 10-17-2009
wydopnthrtl's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SE, Mi
Posts: 2,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by StratGT View Post
I hear ya on that one: Many Tuners here in Canada lock the SCT Tuners after you buy them, then when you do a extra mod and need to make some adjustments they want an extra $75 to unlock and make changes to your Programmer then re-lock them.

I'm looking to buy a SCT Programmer with the Ranger tunes installed, then if I do a 4.10 gear, UD pulleys, and exhaust...I can make the necessary adjustments.

I'm not sure what it would cost you to buy from the US. But Don Lasota in OHIO will sell you exactly what you want. And he'll guide you through it all too. He's a straight shooter and is who I use as my "guru".

Regards, Rich
Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Damn...I ask a lot of questions... RazorEdge General Technical & Electrical 5 12-05-2013 01:16 PM
I've always wanted to ask BurningRANGERtires Suspension Tech 56 10-01-2008 06:31 PM
Gotta ask Reddsurion 2.9L & 3.0L V6 Tech 16 09-20-2008 03:39 AM
Value of my Ranger (or how much should I ask) CNYDave General Ford Ranger Discussion 26 09-18-2008 08:00 AM
Im sure this is a bad idea, but I just have to ask.. VulcanMotor~PowerHouse Drivetrain Tech 19 12-28-2005 10:02 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:12 AM.