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4.0L OHV & SOHC V6 Tech General discussion of 4.0L OHV and SOHC V6 Ford Ranger engines.

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  #26  
Old 05-02-2005
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With a 2003 @ 24K, you are within 3/36, right? It may take the dealer a couple of tries but eventually they will replace enough parts to fix it!
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  #27  
Old 05-02-2005
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Yes I am under warranty. Your comments don't boost the already low confidence I have in dealer service departments, but I don't really see any other options. .. Like I tell people, I had the truck into the service department 9 times in the first 8 months I owned the stuipid thing. It took them several 'tries' to fix my t-case woes as well. Needless to say I'm not excited about this..
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2005
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Like I said before, it can be difficult to pin down the exact problem when you get an O2 code. Is the sensor causing the problem by misreporting the mixture to the PCM or is the sensor telling the truth about a mixture problem caused by something else? A sharp, experienced tech will know what to look for but most don't see enough of the sensor codes to get a feel for it. Then it can become a game of guesswork and random parts replacement.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2005
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Damn! Well, the upside is that it is summer and I have the bike as a backup. Here's hoping for a week or two of favorable weather..

Bob, you mentioned earlier that if it was simply a defective sensor that the engine performance should have improved once the computer decided that the sensor was no good and went to open loop mode, ignoring it. Well, my engine still stumbles, even w/ the CEL. I should probably make that pretty clear to them when I drop it off, shouldn't I?
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  #30  
Old 05-02-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBubba
Damn! Well, the upside is that it is summer and I have the bike as a backup. Here's hoping for a week or two of favorable weather..

Bob, you mentioned earlier that if it was simply a defective sensor that the engine performance should have improved once the computer decided that the sensor was no good and went to open loop mode, ignoring it. Well, my engine still stumbles, even w/ the CEL. I should probably make that pretty clear to them when I drop it off, shouldn't I?
For all the good it will do. I have tried to give pertinent info to service writers before without much success.
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  #31  
Old 05-02-2005
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Yep. Not that I entirely blame them. I hate 'cocky' customers that call me up and tell me what THEY think is wrong w/ MY code! I'm unsure I should even tell them I pulled the code. I'm sure I'll get a lecture about how the truck has delicate and sensitive electronics not designed to be tampered w/ by the end user.. Or some foolishness! Most people seem to get through w/ the simple "It's broke, fix it!" attitude..
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  #32  
Old 05-02-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBubba
Yep. Not that I entirely blame them. I hate 'cocky' customers that call me up and tell me what THEY think is wrong w/ MY code! I'm unsure I should even tell them I pulled the code. I'm sure I'll get a lecture about how the truck has delicate and sensitive electronics not designed to be tampered w/ by the end user.. Or some foolishness! Most people seem to get through w/ the simple "It's broke, fix it!" attitude..
I make a point of just giving them the correct symptoms without a diagnosis. But I defy you to get a service writer to transcribe the correct information. Not understand it, simply parrot it onto the work order.

The service writer (actually a commission salesperson in most dealers) might have been selling shoes at a mall at his or her last job and too often seems to neither understand nor care about motor vehicles. I have met a couple of really good ones, but only a couple. It's no wonder that dealer service departments have the poor repair record that they do. The tech often comes back with "No trouble found" and I have to believe that a good portion of the blame goes to the convoluted process of conveying the customer's concern to the tech doing the diagnosis and repair.
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  #33  
Old 05-02-2005
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Sometimes I think it's an advantage NOT to have them know you are savvy. That way you have the opportunity to catch them if they try to BS you. If you let them know how much you know, and they are inclined towards prevarication, it may encourage them to be more sophisticated in their lying!!!
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2005
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I've actually had what I felt was a pretty good service writer. While not a mechanic, he was somewhat technically fluent. I'd explain my concerns in great detail to the service writer who would seem to understand exactly what I'm talking about. When I found the torn tie rod boot recently he was all over it explaining to me that it would be best to replace the tie rod completely and have the whole front end re-aligned. "You never can tell how much contamination gets into those parts when the boots tear. It's best just to replace the whole thing." he said. I knew this and especially since it was his dime for the new part and labor (under warranty) I agreed whole heartedly. .. Of course you could easily say he was trained to sell me the new part rather than repair on a possibly good part. As it wasn't my dime I didn't care. Had I been out of warranty I might have felt differently.

In all I was pretty happy w/ the service writer at that dealership. He always gave me the warm fuzzy feeling I was looking for. Unfortunately the techs at the dealership didn't quite seem to be on the same level. I got what I felt was unsatisfactory service in more than one occasion. I'm trying a new dealer on this issue, mostly because of logistical issues. We'll see how they rate.

As for how much info to present. I feel I've been burned on both extremes.
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  #35  
Old 05-03-2005
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There's a wide variety of techs out there. Some are unbelievably knowledgeable and thorough, others are total hacks, most are just average Joes. The problem is that it is difficult to hook up with a good one; the customer is very deliberately isolated from the person doing the work. This is understandable, I suppose, but I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette on the occasions when I must drop one of our cars off at the dealer.
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2005
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I got a very helpful PM from Sad_Savant this AM (thanks man!). I hope he doesn't mind me posting it publicly here..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad_Savant
This is Straight from Ford...so there is no guesswork involved...Hope it helps...

P2195 Lack of HO2S-11 Switch, Sensor Indicates Lean Detailed Description
A HEGO sensor indicating lean at the end of a test is trying to correct for an over-rich condition. The test fails when the fuel control system no longer detects switching for a calibrated amount of time.

Possible causes :-
Electrical:
Short to VPWR in harness or HO2S.
Water in harness connector.
Open/Shorted HO2S circuit.
Corrosion or poor mating terminals and wiring.
Damaged HO2S.
Damaged PCM.
Fuel System:
Excessive fuel pressure.
Leaking/contaminated fuel injectors.
Leaking fuel pressure regulator.
Low fuel pressure or running out of fuel.
Vapor recovery system.
Induction System:
Air leaks after the MAF.
Vacuum leaks.
PCV system.
Improperly seated engine oil dipstick.
EGR System:
Leaking gasket.
Stuck EGR valve.
Leaking diaphragm or EVR.
Base Engine:
Oil overfill.
Cam Timing.
Cylinder compression.
Exhaust leaks before or near the HO2S(s).
Is it me or is there an engine component that is not listed there?! Sounds like it could be freakin' anything. Awesome..

Found the 'Improperly seated engine oil dipstick' especially interesting. I went out and checked the dipstick right away after reading that. I'd hate for it to be something that stuipid..

So I was thinking, what would happen to a Ranger engine were it fed rather poor gas. Say especially low octane gas or gas w/ too much water in it. That would cause the engine to knock, right? Eventually engine knock is going to trip the emissions system and trip a CEL right? What would that probably show up as? .. What I guess I'm getting at: What are the chances that this isn't even a defect in the vehicle at all?
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBubba
Is it me or is there an engine component that is not listed there?! Sounds like it could be freakin' anything. Awesome..
That's why so many O2 sensors are replaced needlessly - too many possibilities. At many dealers, no diagnosis is done other than reading the OBDII code description. If it contains the word 'EGR', it gets an EGR valve, If the characters 'O2' are in the code description, it gets an O2 sensor. Simple and quick but often inaccurate.

If it comes back again, they try something else. Too bad for the customer who has to drag it back and forth.
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  #38  
Old 05-03-2005
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To quote sk0t: fawkers!
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2005
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Update: Busted O2 sensor/harness connector..

Wow!

So I just got the call from my dealer. It seems that the code is in fact a bad 02 sensor. It is bad because the connector and sensor themselves are physically damaged!

I went to a different dealer this time. Partly because I was not happy w/ the service I was getting at my usual dealer, and partly because of logistical reasons. The old dealer is now 20-30 minutes out of my way w/ no option for a ride back to work.

So the new dealer mentioned they took a look at the repair log. They believe that the other dealer damaged the sensor and connector when they had the transmission out "for whatever reason" previously. If I'm not mistaken, the trans has to come out to replace/repair the slave cylinder and clutch, both of which I had worked on roughly 10-12k miles and ~1 year ago.. by the other dealer!

I'm going to see if I can see the damage myself and maybe take some photographs. If it is as obvious as the new dealer claims, then I'm going to raise hell on the old dealer! This isn't the first time they've damaged my truck, although it is by far the worst case. Any advice on which numbers/email addresses I can bang at Ford corporate to raise the maximum amount of hell?!

I knew it was going to be something stupid.. however I was afraid it was going to be something more complex. Although unfortunately it isn't as simple as replacing the senor. Apparently the connector itself is damaged too, and so I need a new "engine bay wiring harness", a special order (and expensive sounding) item! I find myself muttering "gooooood warranty, goood little warranty" at this point!

Does it seem viable that I would have this much time (~1 year and ~10k miles) between the damage being inflicted and the results showing up in terms of poor performance and a CEL? I guess the theory is that it held together enough to complete the circuit for a while, but eventually just let go.. So far I buy it!

The upside is I got my NH inspection sticker anyway. It seems NH does not even care if the CEL is lit! (I thought it CEL = failed inspection.)
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  #40  
Old 05-04-2005
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its very possible for it to keep working with a poor connection and it just finally decided to take a crap on you... and yeah i would go and complain to the old dealer but im sure that they will say "oh how do e know that the damage was caused here by us" or some other bs excuse like that... glad to see youre getting this sorted out though
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  #41  
Old 05-04-2005
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Most of those connectors are sealed against the elements. If it was messed up, it would probably have let water, dirt and anything else in and corroded like crazy and failed. Totally probable scenario to my mind.
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3elz
Most of those connectors are sealed against the elements. If it was messed up, it would probably have let water, dirt and anything else in and corroded like crazy and failed. Totally probable scenario to my mind.
Very true. The oxygen sensor generates a voltage based on the difference in oxygen content of the exhaust stream vs. that of the ambient air. There is a reference cell that must be allowed to "breathe" to the outside air stream to allow this to occur. The amount of ambient air exchange is carefully metered, often breathing through the wiring to the sensor. If it too restricted, the oxygen sensor won't work and can actually go into a polarity reversal. On the other hand, if the reference cell is wide open to the elements, it can easily be contaminated with water or dirt.
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2005
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Just picked up the truck. They cleared the light, but it came back on before I was out of the parking lot! No surprise really..

The service guy really couldn't tell me any more details than he told me on the phone. The tech that worked on it was 'unavailable'. As Bob said, they insulate you from them. Besides, I'm sure he was elbow deep in another customer's vehicle by then. I asked them to hold onto the harness when they replace it (next week) so I can see it. I mentioned I'm pretty ticked at the other dealer and looking for amunition. They seemed willing to do that. Although gator, you've got a point, the damage *could* have been caused by something else. I just wanna see it first hand I suppose..

I tried to take a peek at it from under the vehicle. I think I have identified the 02 sensors. They are metal cylinders about 2-3 inches long that extend off the manifold/'y-pipe'. They have what look to be a three conductor wire attached. The 4.0 has three, correct? I see one on the driver's side pipe, one on the passenger's side pipe, and a third after the Y before the flange to the rest of the exhaust system. The one the computer complained about (Bank 1, Sensor 1) is the one on the passenger side pipe, correct? I looked quickly before I left the dealership and couldn't see anything obvious. Although it has since occured to me that I was probably not looking at the right location. I looked at the tail of the sensor. They probably have a short 4-8" pig-tail that goes to the connector, don't they? I'll look again later. There definitely seems to be less clearance for the passenger sensor than for either of the other two..

At any rate, thanks for your replies guys. It is aweful nice to have resources like you available..
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