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Drivetrain Tech General discussion of drivetrain for the Ford Ranger.

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  #26  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
No on the UDP, I would never put one of those on a vehicle!!!
Bob why not? IMO if the user is a car sauvy type of guy. A type who keeps his eye on temps and volts and understands just how far to push it.. I say it's fine. If you were talking about a person who expects it to function no different that what the OEM supplied? Then I'd agree.


In my experience, I am a big fan of underdrive pulleys as long as a little reality checking is done on the users part. I've personally put 100k miles on a 5.0L stang with underdrives. I knew it's weak points and made sure to be aware of them. I did that on the original battery and even the kid who bought it from me put another 50k on it w/o problems.

Also, the crank underdrive on these 4.0L is very small. Too small IMO. However, I've really pushed it and had problems only after about 35minutes of sitting dead still in 95 degree heat. We had the AC cranked, fans on, and radio playing the whole time. Every 5 minutes or so I'd raise the idle to 1300-ish to make sure it was staying cool and had power.

With a little attention to your surroundings.. and UDP is a very good bang for the buck.

Rich
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  #27  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by lifted97ranger View Post
Bob, you will never learn and no matter how many times you are proven wrong, you will never admit it.

I am going to drop it in Rich's thread because it is going off topic, but Bob you are wrong.
Here you go Maurice, this is the most basic automotive charging system link, I could find, that hopefully you might comprehend!

http://www.familycar.com/CLASSROOM/charging.htm


And here is a quote from it, saying the same thing I've been trying to tell you in several posts, that you don't understand:


If the voltage drops below 12.5, it means that the battery is providing some of the current. You may notice that your dash lights dim at this point. If this happens for an extended period, the battery will run down and may not have enough of a charge to start the car after shutting it off.
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  #28  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob why not? IMO if the user is a car sauvy type of guy. A type who keeps his eye on temps and volts and understands just how far to push it.. I say it's fine. If you were talking about a person who expects it to function no different that what the OEM supplied? Then I'd agree.

Rich, with the Cafe standards today, ALL of the auto manufacturers will go to extremes to design and manufacturer their vehicles to be as efficient as possible! Therefore, they have optimized the RPM that the accessories turn driven from the crank pulley.

If you still had your mechanical fan/clutch assembly, there would be plenty of air pulled across the tranny cooler, and you wouldn't be having to add additional e-fans.
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  #29  
Old 06-16-2008
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Sorry Rich, I tried letting this die in this thread, but some can't.

Let me give you the rest of that quote Bob and show you that the ALTERNATOR is what is providing power when the vehicle is RUNNING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob's link
A modern automobile has a 12 volt electrical system. A fully charged battery will read about 12.5 volts when the engine is not running. When the engine is running, the charging system takes over so that the voltmeter will read 14 to 14.5 volts and should stay there unless there is a heavy load on the electrical system such as wipers, lights, heater and rear defogger all operating together while the engine is idling at which time the voltage may drop. If the voltage drops below 12.5, it means that the battery is providing some of the current. You may notice that your dash lights dim at this point. If this happens for an extended period, the battery will run down and may not have enough of a charge to start the car after shutting it off. This should never happen with a healthy charging system because as soon as you step on the gas, the charging system will recharge the battery. If the voltage is constantly below 14 volts, you should have the system checked. If the voltage ever goes above 15 volts, there is a problem with the voltage regulator. Have the system checked as soon as possible as this "overcharging" condition can cause damage to your electrical system.
Dang Bob, it must suck to be proven wrong time and time again.
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  #30  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
I use mercon V. I dropped the pan at 20k miles and installed a drain plug. I then drained it again at 30k. (4 qts) I plan on doing it this way every 10k miles.

btw, when it's hot out I set the scanguage to look at temps. I've only seen it go over 200 once. And that was on sat when I was giving this a try by towing the boat. It got up to 204 when I was accelerating up to 70mph w/o the fans running. After I reached 70mph for several minutes it cooled off into the 190s. Turned the fan on and it dropped into the 180s.

Rich
Rich, I think you will cross that 200 mark several times on your trip down, i dont know that i would be afraid of anything under 215.
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  #31  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
If you still had your mechanical fan/clutch assembly, there would be plenty of air pulled across the tranny cooler, and you wouldn't be having to add additional e-fans.
Oh gosh, I knew this would revert back to a "efans are the devil" thread from Bob...
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  #32  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by lifted97ranger View Post
Sorry Rich, I tried letting this die in this thread, but some can't.

Let me give you the rest of that quote Bob and show you that the ALTERNATOR is what is providing power when the vehicle is RUNNING.



Dang Bob, it must suck to be proven wrong time and time again.

Ok, Maurice, let check you to see if you understood what you read!!

If the engine is running, and the battery voltage is 12.3V (in Rich's case)
What is supplying the voltage, the battery or alternator???
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  #33  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, with the Cafe standards today, ALL of the auto manufacturers will go to extremes to design and manufacturer their vehicles to be as efficient as possible! Therefore, they have optimized the RPM that the accessories turn driven from the crank pulley.

If you still had your mechanical fan/clutch assembly, there would be plenty of air pulled across the tranny cooler, and you wouldn't be having to add additional e-fans.
Bob I was a FEAD engineer for ford for 6 years. (front end accessory drive)
I specialized in water pumps and we designed / engineered that components for *all climates*. My pumps had to function in -40F and in 240F without any serious trade offs. There are always trade offs!

The range of "efficiency" at which we spin the FEAD is not the objective. It simply can't be on a fixed speed belt drive system. Rather what we did/do is meet the extreme objectives and then test, test, and re-test (called "DV" or design validation).

Like I said before.. if you want to put on a UDP and expect it to operate exactly like a OEM pulley? You'd be chasing your tail. But if a guy is willing to take a little time, gather info, and be aware. A UDP is a great way to free up power and gain MPG.

Regards,
Rich
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  #34  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Like I said before.. if you want to put on a UDP and expect it to operate exactly like a OEM pulley? You'd be chasing your tail. But if a guy is willing to take a little time, gather info, and be aware. A UDP is a great way to free up power and gain MPG.

Regards,
Rich
Rich, more MPG can be gained by changing driving habits, than with a UDP! Matter of fact, if you spin an alternator slower, the regulator will supply more current to the field to try and increase the output, which puts more load on the crank!

What you are talking about in terms of watching temps, and volts would be a real problem for a guy like Maurice, who has shown from his posts here that he doesn't have a clue on how an automotive charging system works!
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  #35  
Old 06-16-2008
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Oh and on the mechanical fan thing. Yes it did pull a constant flow accross the tranny cooler. However the tranny cooler in its stock location is about 4" from the rad. There is nothing between the two ***and*** the cooler is 2/3rds blocked by the bumper support. The air flow was no where near stong enough to hold up a piece of paper. (I tried it)

In the stock configuration the cooler sees very little air flow across it.

Yes it's true that I have to run my e-fans now when I'm sitting still. But when moving I've proven it's not an issue at all. Actually, 95% of the time during my daily driving here in SE Michigan my fans never come on at all when set on auto (212 degrees).

Rich
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  #36  
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Oh and on the mechanical fan thing. Yes it did pull a constant flow accross the tranny cooler. However the tranny cooler in its stock location is about 4" from the rad. There is nothing between the two ***and*** the cooler is 2/3rds blocked by the bumper support.
Rich
You don't have a AC condenser between the radiator and tranny cooler?
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  #37  
Old 06-16-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, more MPG can be gained by changing driving habits, than with a UDP! Matter of fact, if you spin an alternator slower, the regulator will supply more current to the field to try and increase the output, which puts more load on the crank!

I both agree and dis-agree.

I agree that driving technique is the single best thing a guy can do. I have a saying.. "if your on the brakes your wasting gas".

I dis-agree with your **asumption** that putting an increase load on the crank decreases MPG. Here's why.. When driving down the road your only using 20%-50% of the power (made by burning fuel) that your already creating. If you increased the engine load by 3-5% (which I've verified) the PCM does *not* add fuel. Usually it adds timing for that small of a load increase.. if at all! I've looked at both timing and short term fuel trims to confirm this.

Now if you were talking about a small displacement engine like a 2.0L.. then you very well might be correct. But on a larger displacement engine it's not true.

Rich
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  #38  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
If the engine is running, and the battery voltage is 12.3V (in Rich's case) What is supplying the voltage, the battery or alternator???
If the engine is running and you are getting a 12.3v reading at the battery, then your alternator isn't putting out its capacity. Have you ever measured the volts at the alternator when an engine is running, or are you only stating off what you have read (pretty obvious it is based off what you have read alone).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
What you are talking about in terms of watching temps, and volts would be a real problem for a guy like Maurice, who has shown from his posts here that he doesn't have a clue on how an automotive charging system works!
Watching temps and volts being hard. If you know the limits Bob, then any goober with a 1/3 a brain can watch temps (even you can Bob).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
Rich, more MPG can be gained by changing driving habits, than with a UDP
Bob, most people who run UDP's do it for the power aspect, not the fuel milage.
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  #39  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
You don't have a AC condenser between the radiator and tranny cooler?
I mis-spoke. I meant to say that there is 4" between the AC condenser and the T-cooler.

I've now moved it another 1/2" fwd to make clearance for the small fan.

Here is a pic:

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  #40  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
I dis-agree with your **asumption** that putting an increase load on the crank decreases MPG. Here's why.. When driving down the road your only using 20%-50% of the power (made by burning fuel) that your already creating. If you increased the engine load by 3-5% (which I've verified) the PCM does *not* add fuel. Usually it adds timing for that small of a load increase.. if at all! I've looked at both timing and short term fuel trims to confirm this.

Rich
I think you just theorized on why UDPs are a waste for MPG!!
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  #41  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by lifted97ranger View Post
Watching temps and volts being hard. If you know the limits Bob, then any goober with a 1/3 a brain can watch temps (even you can Bob)..

Ok Maurice, you covered the temp, how much brain do you need for the VOLTS??

You still haven't answered the question: With the engine running, and you measure 12.3V, what is supplying the voltage, a) battery , b) alternator
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  #42  
Old 06-16-2008
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I think you just theorized on why UDPs are a waste for MPG!!
What? They improve MPG and rear wheel power because they slow the accessories.

Bob that ain't theory. That fact. I've personally conducted TQ draw test for all the V8 & V10 modular engine series. The faster you spin all accessories the more TQ that's required. This is even true for the idler pullies.

I do find one thing interesting... you want to throw up "Ford engineers" as knowing what they are doing. But yet when one talks to ya...

Rich
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  #43  
Old 06-16-2008
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You still haven't answered the question: With the engine running, and you measure 12.3V, what is supplying the voltage, a) battery , b) alternator
I will quote what I said....
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger in post #38
If the engine is running and you are getting a 12.3v reading at the battery, then your alternator isn't putting out its capacity.
When I say capacity, I mean normal capacity.
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  #44  
Old 06-16-2008
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What? They improve MPG and rear wheel power because they slow the accessories.
:
Ok, Rich lets have some HP, TQ, and MPG before and after UDP for your Ranger!!
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  #45  
Old 06-16-2008
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Ok, Rich lets have some HP, TQ, and MPG before and after UDP for your Ranger!!
Look at his website or do a search for his post here. There have been numerous threads from Rich on the how the UDP improves HP, TQ, and mpg.
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  #46  
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I do find one thing interesting... you want to throw up "Ford engineers" as knowing what they are doing. But yet when one talks to ya...

Rich
If you look at technical competency across engineers, there will be a distribution!

Now, you want to talk about your GM Northstar???
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  #47  
Old 06-16-2008
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Ok, Rich lets have some HP, TQ, and MPG before and after UDP for your Ranger!!

I don't have the before power chart on my web page. But I did do those measurements Bob. And on the test bench I've done about 15 different TQ consumption tests for Ford.



Here is 1/2 of what you ask for.

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  #48  
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I don't have the before power chart on my web page. But I did do those measurements Bob. And on the test bench I've done about 15 different TQ consumption tests for Ford.



Here is 1/2 of what you ask for.


Is the TQ and HP the same scale on the Y-axis (HP, and ft.lb)?
And, how were the measurements taken?
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  #49  
Old 06-16-2008
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As far as the northstar goes.. I only measured fuel, timing, and power results for shooting nitrous. Started off with a 35 shot and stepped it up to a 100shot. When I do a mod.. I make sure I know what going on so that it's not overbearing on any one component.

The end result can be fun.. This TA owner was very supprised to see a front wheel drive gandpa car hanging with him going through the traps.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Cadillac-El...lip-10711.html

http://www.dragtimes.com/2001-Cadill...eos-10711.html
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  #50  
Old 06-16-2008
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The OBD2 system on fords have a "TQ into converter" parameter.

I data logged that info and then charted it in excel. The "HP" part is simply a calculation. Which most people don't comprehend anyway... The is no such thing as HP in a modern car. But lets not open that can of worms in this post.

Rich
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