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Drivetrain Tech General discussion of drivetrain for the Ford Ranger.

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  #101  
Old 06-16-2008
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you people have no maturity at all, quite sad really, only rich is handling himself in a mature manner
They are older than us too.
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  #102  
Old 06-16-2008
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yep, like little school girls arguing over which boy is theirs
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  #103  
Old 06-16-2008
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ok i'm scanning the instructions for the shift correction kit now

you will still be owned!
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  #104  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
You better dig a little deeper, the parts you called out aren't even in the cooler line circuits!!!!

Call up your tranny kit folks, and they will set you straight!!!!
here you go bobbie!

step number 5

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shall i give you there number so you can call them?

here 850-575-7155
www.superior-transmission.com

what a looser
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  #105  
Old 06-16-2008
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  #106  
Old 06-16-2008
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Thanks Mark, All I'm trying to do is to *protect* for a situation where I might get the tranny fluids over 210-215. Next week I'll know for sure when I'm pullin the hills in Tenn.

And Bob, I'm not sure what point your trying to make? What I PMed you is consistant with what I said a little while ago. btw, that's what happens when you stand on measured data or a standard of somesort. I don't make stuff up. I measure and post. If I've not measured or see evidence of reasonable measurement, I don't take firm stances.

I do understand your point of young guys wasting thier money though. Something like a K&N kits looks like it'll really do something for you. But in reality the OEM airbox does it's job very well. Guys like me though will never be satisfied with OEM performance. I know there are certian areas that just don't fit what I want. I must say that now-a-days I'm very satisfied with my ranger. It sounds good when I mash the throttle, it scoots out with nice crisp shifts, sounds good when I turn up the radio, and it offers a very good balance for a daily driver vehicle that me and the family can live with / afford.

Rich
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  #107  
Old 06-16-2008
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rich, did you see the posts on page 4?

seems someone logged off for some reason lmao!

see i have had my transmission completely apart and know it inside and out. i have done a lot of work to it so it will shift the way i want it to and run at a temperature i want also. bob has no clue!
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  #108  
Old 06-16-2008
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Originally Posted by 04 EDGE View Post
rich, did you see the posts on page 4?

Yeah. ?

I'm assuming that the valve your talking about prevents flow until a certian tempature is reached? Or it in some way regulates the fluid and prevents it from over cooling?

I think the way ford does that is fine. I'm just trying to prevent the over temp conditions. *if they even get high enough?*

Shoot, if the temps stay in line on this trip I just might pull the fan off and use it elsewhere.

Rich
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  #109  
Old 06-17-2008
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Originally Posted by 04 EDGE View Post
here you go bobbie!

step number 5



shall i give you there number so you can call them?

here 850-575-7155
www.superior-transmission.com

what a looser
Ok Mark, I'll admit I was wrong! Good point!

However, unless the tranny has a heavy load on it, I would expect the radiator would heat the ATF up quicker on a cold start if it flowed. The ATF flows through the
aux. cooler first, and then the radiator.

Last edited by Takeda; 06-17-2008 at 05:33 AM.
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  #110  
Old 06-18-2008
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Been driving four days now. The temps climb slower than they did before. Yesterday it was cold (62F) and it took a solid 1/2 hour to get up to 150F. I turned the fans on just to see what would happen. The temp did not go down at all.

Interesting..
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  #111  
Old 06-18-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Ah don't bash hmi too much. He's just an old guy getting kicks from people who are young and impatient. Too bad he doesn't use more science.

Rich
His problems are simple.

Theres many Enthusiasts here whom have adapted and made useful entities. ' bob ' has nothing better to do then play ' nay-sayer '.

If not on cars and trucks, its cameras or whatever the subject of the day is.

Maurice has offered input from projects he has done, been to meets, helped others, yet hes the one to be banned over ' bob ', someone whom has less use to most members then toilet tissue.

I wonder when I put the final write-up on my project how bad hes going to bounce around like a soccer ball complaining on how everything was done wrong.. when he still hasn't grasped anything given to him.
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  #112  
Old 06-18-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Ok Mark, I'll admit I was wrong! Good point!

However, unless the tranny has a heavy load on it, I would expect the radiator would heat the ATF up quicker on a cold start if it flowed. The ATF flows through the
aux. cooler first, and then the radiator.
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  #113  
Old 06-19-2008
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Originally Posted by Prerunner-Ranger View Post
i wonder how bad that crow tasted?


while proven wrong in his eyes he still sees fault!
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  #114  
Old 06-19-2008
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I guess there is a history with Bob and posts that I'm not aware of. I didn't know someone got banned over some dis-agreements. (bad conduct I would assume)

Oh well.. back to the topic.

I've noticed that the overall temps (no fans running) still get up to the same levels. But it takes significantly longer. Drove 32 miles this morning and it only got up to 143F

Rich
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  #115  
Old 06-25-2008
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Update:

Well, we loaded up and drove the 600 miles to East Tenn.
4 People, 200-ish lbs of luggage & tools, and the 3500lb boat & trailer.

Holding a steady 65mph (in OD) temps run 193F rad and 182F tranny. As the ambient temps get up into the 85-90 area the temps climbed to 202F Rad & 187F tranny. We then went through some cooler air in Ky and the temps went back down to 193F / 181F. The E-fans never kicked on while driving until....

We had the mother of all heat tests at the top of the little mountian on I-75 south! The truck wouldn't pull the mountian in OD. (not even close) so I went down to Drive (4th) and had it at a steady 60mph. The temps did rise as we went up. But they were only running 206F rad and 187F tranny. Not much really considering it was 87F outside and we had the AC cranked. Keep in mind this is w/o the fans running and I'm spinning the motor at about 2900rpms with the throttle at about 75% to the floor... Then right as we got to the top traffic came to a DEAD STOP. I thought.. oh boy here we go.
There was a RV on fire and stopped traffic dead. Anyway, I turned the fans on 100% speed, put it in park (800rpms), & left the AC cranked. Keep in mind I have the ASP crank underdrive pulley and had just pulled this mountian for 5-ish miles.
So there we were, and I was very supprised at how well it did! It did get too hot and took about 8-9 minutes to do so. There was a mazda 6 that was pulled off and boiling over, a ford expedition was in the stages of first puking it's coolant, and 3-4 cars already off the side with overheating problems.
So, in about 8-9 minutes of creeping fwd approx 300ft my scanguage was showing 233F rad and 202F tranny. (stock temp guage on dash was at the 1:30 position)
Buuuut.. the traffic was now starting to crawl. So I couldn't just shut it off. So we put the windows down and I turned the heater on full blast.
Wasn't sure what was going to happen. But to my supprise the temps dropped to 200F and 199F in less than 1 minute.
As soon as I saw it cool off that quick I turn the AC back on.
We crept along at 10mph for about a mile and then passed the fire. Temps only got back up to 220 and then dropped slowly as we sped back up.

My summary.. *IF* I lived in the south and towed up mountians often. I'd swap the RAD out for a 3 or 4 core version and add a second fan to the rad.

I've got pics I'll post when I get them downloaded.

Rich
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  #116  
Old 06-25-2008
 
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Maurice said to say "good job Rich" and "BOOOO YAAAA" to everyone that doubted the setup!
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  #117  
Old 06-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Update:

Well, we loaded up and drove the 600 miles to East Tenn.
4 People, 200-ish lbs of luggage & tools, and the 3500lb boat & trailer.

Holding a steady 65mph (in OD) temps run 193F rad and 182F tranny. As the ambient temps get up into the 85-90 area the temps climbed to 202F Rad & 187F tranny. We then went through some cooler air in Ky and the temps went back down to 193F / 181F. The E-fans never kicked on while driving until....

We had the mother of all heat tests at the top of the little mountian on I-75 south! The truck wouldn't pull the mountian in OD. (not even close) so I went down to Drive (4th) and had it at a steady 60mph. The temps did rise as we went up. But they were only running 206F rad and 187F tranny. Not much really considering it was 87F outside and we had the AC cranked. Keep in mind this is w/o the fans running and I'm spinning the motor at about 2900rpms with the throttle at about 75% to the floor... Then right as we got to the top traffic came to a DEAD STOP. I thought.. oh boy here we go.
There was a RV on fire and stopped traffic dead. Anyway, I turned the fans on 100% speed, put it in park (800rpms), & left the AC cranked. Keep in mind I have the ASP crank underdrive pulley and had just pulled this mountian for 5-ish miles.
So there we were, and I was very supprised at how well it did! It did get too hot and took about 8-9 minutes to do so. There was a mazda 6 that was pulled off and boiling over, a ford expedition was in the stages of first puking it's coolant, and 3-4 cars already off the side with overheating problems.
So, in about 8-9 minutes of creeping fwd approx 300ft my scanguage was showing 233F rad and 202F tranny. (stock temp guage on dash was at the 1:30 position)
Buuuut.. the traffic was now starting to crawl. So I couldn't just shut it off. So we put the windows down and I turned the heater on full blast.
Wasn't sure what was going to happen. But to my supprise the temps dropped to 200F and 199F in less than 1 minute.
As soon as I saw it cool off that quick I turn the AC back on.
We crept along at 10mph for about a mile and then passed the fire. Temps only got back up to 220 and then dropped slowly as we sped back up.

My summary.. *IF* I lived in the south and towed up mountians often. I'd swap the RAD out for a 3 or 4 core version and add a second fan to the rad.

I've got pics I'll post when I get them downloaded.

Rich
Thanks for the update Rich, glad your having a safe trip! I hate to say it,
but you wouldn't have overheated if you had the stock pulleys, and mechanical fan/clutch!

Check out this post by AllanD, over on TRS:

Originally Posted by AllanD:

Ok, Time for me to point out something that's obvious to me but obviously not to everyone else.

From what I have seen over the years OEM type electric fans are MORE prone to failure than mechanical fans.
And by MANY times more prone to failure...
failure can come from many causes because of the complexity of the "system".

a Mechanical fan will turn if the engine is turning UNLESS the engine tosses the drive belt and if it does the water pump won't be turning anyway so you'd have other issues.

Now as for POWER required to turn that fan, the results there are Skewed (probably intentionally) by electric fan manufacturers.

Does it take 5-10hp to turn a mechanical fan at the engine's horsepower peak? Yep, it probably does.
But mostly because in high rpm operation the engine can "overpower" the ability of the thermo-vicsous clutch to slip.

You can literally DESTROY a fan clutch by consistantly spinning
it past it's design speed (but if you are you certainly aren't
concerned about mileage) two hours at 4000rpm with a 2.9 will usually destroy a shiny new fan clutch... (BTDT)

But in Highway cruise mode (at lower rpm) it takes far less power to spin it than the "worst case" figuires given above.

The real benefit to a mechanical fan is it's failure mode.
the fan itself almost never fails but the clutch can, and
while a fan clutch will slip excessively early in the failure
it won't do that for very long before it exibits the typical failure:
Locking solid after which it takes MUCH more power to turn
and is EASILY detected as a "P-47 at takeoff power" noise.

Most cars have electric fans because it is impractical (if not rediculous) to design a mechanically driven fan for a TRANSVERSE engine car.

And many of the cars that still do have longitudinal engines that use electric fans do it because of space or other engineerin considerations.

I applaud the poster above that uses an OEM electric fan from some other vehicle, because the aftermarket fans are utter CRAP by comparison

In the end the "Failure mode" of "Locked-up power drag" but the engine still gets cooled, is preferable to many of us more conservative people than the; "fan simply stops, engine doesn't get cooled" failure mode of the electric fan.

I'll be keeping the clutch fan on my 4.0.

I WILL NOT be designing some Rube Goldberg setup to put
a mechanical fan onto my classic Saab 900 Turbo.

Though I did slightly redesign the relay logic system that controls the fans.

In the factory setup there are two fans, either of which is capable of keeping the engine cool, though in practice the passenger side fan is controlled by the activation of the A/C system.
In my car BOTH fans are controlled by SEPERATE Relays triggered
by SEPERATE temperature switches and the A/C system is set up
to bypass the controlling temp switch.
However that isn't all I did I have a dash mounted switch that
Bypasses the temp switches AND the two fan relays and powers
both fans to on until I manually turn them off with a seperate relay.

And this is on a car that I have literally run for four-five MONTHS at a time with the fans bouncing around in the spare tire well, because from late October to early April the fans simply aren't needed aerodynamic forces drive sufficient air through the radiator to keep the engine cool even in extended Full throttle operation

and therein lies an important difference between cars and trucks.

Most cars with electric fans are designed for "passive" airflow
through the radiator Most trucks aren't.

so putting an electric fan into a car that is designed to survive with NO FAN AT ALL is quite a bit different from removing a NECISSARY mechanical fan from a truck that really NEEDS a powerful fan.

Factory engineers aren't as stupid, nor are factory accountants as stingy, as some here want to make out.

as for the "lets make a fan that's easy to injection mould"?
don't make me laugh. the fans are probably more optimized
for low rpm operation, which hurts them in private dyno testing,
because the factory figuired (correctly IMO) that if the engine was at high rpm for an extended period of time it was PROBABLY moving at sufficient speed for more effective passive airflow.

Remember that factory engineers are saddled with the requirement that they GUESS how somene in the field is going to abuse their best efforts, so they design in a certain ammount of overkill.

I drive a truck and I try to post-design in a bit more "overkill"

Thus I have the higher flow volume water pump (superior impeller design) from a 4.0SOHC, the fan clutch and fan from a 4.0SOHC.
An auto trans radiator (even though I have a manual trans)

the penalties from having too much cooling capacity is a price
I'm more than willing to pay... especially after STILL being able to
drive 1500 miles home after my radiator became partially
plugged internally...

Not to mention that fans and radiators become less efficient at
the 6000-8000ft of elevation at my brother's place than they are at the 500-1000ft when I'm local to my home.

And I actually use my truck to tow.... and that's another thing entirely....

there is no electric fan I'd trust my engine to that can keep up with the heat generated by a 4.0 at 3500rpm dragging a 5000-6000lb trailer up a 7mile long 8% grade.

There is a huge difference between necissary minimums
and needed for "worst case scenario".

you are free to redesign your own truck to your own ideas, it's a free country. But you must sit there and suck it up when you guess wrong, melt your engine and then come to the forum whining about the destruction.

Not believing in Railroad locomotives will not prevent you from getting squashed when you stand on the tracks with your eyes closed and your ears plugged.

AD
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  #118  
Old 06-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engdept View Post
Maurice said to say "good job Rich" and "BOOOO YAAAA" to everyone that doubted the setup!
The only one that doubted it was Bob. He thinks that you can't improve over stock. Stock is the best to him.
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  #119  
Old 06-25-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Thanks for the update Rich, glad your having a safe trip! I hate to say it,
but you wouldn't have overheated if you had the stock pulleys, and mechanical fan/clutch!
I don't disagree at all. But towing a boat up a mountian w/ 4 people crammed into a ranger is not something I do more than once a year at most. And for what it's worth.. I was in tune with my rig and prevented a true "over heat" condition. I did **not** have any problems. Only a minor in-convience (sp?) of turning on the heater. Had we not moved I'd have just shut off the motor.

The other 99% of my milage is rather spent getting better MPG, having a smoother running engine, and occasianly doing WOT blasts just for the fun of it. Considering how I use the truck.. I'm perfectly happy as is and look forward to many more years of doing the same.

I do hope this post will give some reality checks to folks who are considering underdrives and e-fans. It's my opinion that you just gotta put some thought into what your goals are. If your in the south and tow over hills.. well know what your in for. It's perfectly doable IMO. Just be prepared to deal with the heat.

Regards,
Rich
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  #120  
Old 06-25-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
I don't disagree at all. But towing a boat up a mountian w/ 4 people crammed into a ranger is not something I do more than once a year at most. Regards,
Rich
From your description Rich, it sounded like you got the hottest just creeping along, which is a scenario people get caught in with rush hour traffic all the time. The very small improvement in MPG, if any at all, would not be worth the hassle, or potential damage to engine & tranny....IMHO.
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  #121  
Old 06-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
From your description Rich, it sounded like you got the hottest just creeping along, which is a scenario people get caught in with rush hour traffic all the time. The very small improvement in MPG, if any at all, would not be worth the hassle, or potential damage to engine & tranny....IMHO.
Bob I dis-agree. You must keep in mind I had just been pulling a steep grade w/4 people and a boat at approx 3000 rpms in 87F temps. And at that it took 8-9 minutes. I was already red hot and then came to a stop. last year it sat dead still for 45 minutes before it got this warm.
From my first hand experiences.. I just dis-agree with your summary.

As far as MPG increases... I saw a solid 1.5mpg from the pulley. The e-fan however I saw next to no improvements. But then again I'm in the north. The guys in the southern heat would most likely see better results.

Rich
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  #122  
Old 06-25-2008
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Originally Posted by fddriver02 View Post
The only one that doubted it was Bob. He thinks that you can't improve over stock. Stock is the best to him.

and he was proven wrong and he still feels the need to post someone else's theory.

see he has never done any "mods" to anything he has ever owned!

so he has no right to post any opinions.


even in defeat he still is closed minded.

there is no need for people like him on forums like this and it pisses me off that someone got banned because of him!

Last edited by 04 EDGE; 06-26-2008 at 07:39 PM.
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  #123  
Old 06-25-2008
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wydopen, thats almost exactly the results I had with the efan. Now I run 202 consistently in the city and 209 consistently on the hwy w/o a trailer. My trans in the city is 150-165, and hwy is 150 always.

W/ a trailer, I'm at 213-215 hwy towing, and 206 consistently city. My trans is 165 city and about 155-160 hwy.

I do have the shift correction transgo kit, and a whole bunch of goodies in the trans.
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  #124  
Old 06-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
My summary.. *IF* I lived in the south and towed up mountians often. I'd swap the RAD out for a 3 or 4 core version and add a second fan to the rad.
Rich
Rich, Flex-a-lite doesn't recommend using an e-fan with a
4-core radiator. From their website:


NOTE: Flex-a-lite does not recommend using
an electric fan for the primary cooling source on
4-core radiators. Flex-a-lite recommends at least
60% of the finned core area be covered by an
electric fan/shroud assembly for optimum cooling.
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  #125  
Old 06-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, Flex-a-lite doesn't recommend using an e-fan with a
4-core radiator.
Bob, something to consider. Behind every official recommendation from a company is a person or "team" responsible for the claim. Individuals within companies are not going near the "edge" when it comes to advice. They simply don't want to be accountable for people who ruin there stuff due to ignorance and / or a careless attitude.
(In the point you show.. a 4 core rad is harder to pull air through. But it's surface area is so much greater. IMO that advice is considering BB V8 types. Not stock rangers)

You point is noted, Thanks for the heads up.
Having been a FEAD and water pump engineer for Ford.. for SIX YEARS.. I think I got this "mod" under control. I assume any and all risks of damage I may cause to my own personal vehicles.

In this post I've reported/documented what happens when we go beyond what the factory offered. I think it serves as two purposes. 1) It's a good reality check for others who are interested in the subject. 2) It validates what I've considered.. and then modified. That validation (aka "proof") has clearly shown there is a limit. That limit is so high though that for me and my needs it works.
btw, The post is about tranny cooling. Which never got hot. Hum....

As far as others who might do this. I suggest you consider your needs/wants and then make an informed decision. Take charge of your own life! Mod your cars/trucks to your hearts content I say. If something does fail due to your modding? Be a man and accept the responsibility.

This is how *real car guys* learn now-a-days.



Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 06-26-2008 at 11:11 AM.
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