I'm hoping D. and wydopnthrtl show up for this one. Can you guys school me on what to look for when selecting a nitrous system for a 454. This will be for my street/strip project chevelle. Will be stock bottom end for a while, with Dart Pro1 heads I think (my head selection is still changeable, have not bought them yet, same with intake). Also motor has a Lunati voodoo cam.

Basically, I am looking for a crash course and you two obviously know A LOT about the juice.

Thanks!!!

 

Before you start this there are really two things I'd want to know.

1) How much are you willing to spend *in total* on a nitrous system as well as how much per year are you willing to spend on nitrous/fuel.

2) Are you traction limited? Street radials or always on sticky tires?

Rich

 

PHASE CHANGE

Phase change is your enemy. It makes for more nitrous usage and it handicaps initial (or pedaled) activation / reactivation. Looks like you have a manual tranny. LISTEN UP!!
What I do to maximize efficiency (keeping it liquid from the bottle to the nozzle) is to have a constantly necking down pipe / fitting size from the bottom of the bottle to the jet. Basicly a funnel. This insures liquid form and eliminates the need for a purge. (I have no purge even on the Lightning which is capable of 450hp worth)

Now, the farther away the jet is from the solenoid the more phase change you'll have. This is why my solenoid has the jet approx 1.5mm (0.06") from the solenoids valve. My jet litterally screws into the solenoid body. I have therefor eliminated the possibliity of phase change that every other kit on the market has to deal with.

Once the nitrous passes the jet, it goes intstantly to a gas form. It has to because its boiling as it reaches atmosphere. Since I have the jet and the nozzle approx 10" apart I use a pipe with a 1.8mm inside diameter. This is good up to about a 100shot. And I'll step it up to a 2mm or a 2.5mm pipe just depending on what shot size I'm running.

On the ranger I get near instant liquid nitrous being release from the nozzle when I activate it. And keep in mind thats using **no purge**!! In fact it's so instant that I have to delay the activation at first WOT by a 1/2second delay. I then ramp up the nitrous shot size for 4 seconds from 6hp to 60hp so as not to spin the tires. I do the same on the lightning too. Even on slicks I can cut a better 60ft with a small delay (0.2 sec) and a ramp.

One last note about phase change. When nitrous changes phase (liquid to a gas) it very rapidly cools. As does the surrounding air. This is where approx 1/3 of your increase in power comes from. So.. little phase changes in the system thats suppling nitrous to the engine, is robbing you of efficiency. Meaning.. to get a true 100hp increase in power a NX/NOS/Edel.. kit has to have a bigger jet than what I use. Combine having to use a purge and a bigger jet means that on a 100hp 1/4 mile run those kits would use approx 1.5lbs of nitrous. At $4.25 a LB a kit like NX would use $6.38 worth of nitrous. What I use equates to approx $3.50 for a 100hp pass down the track. (this is why I ask the questions in the my previouspost)

The same mentality is mostly true for the fuel side if your running a wet shot. It doesn't change phase and doesn't need the purge. But making it go through "steps" in diameter of pipe and fitting size means your restricting its ability to flow. It "works".. but your loosing efficiency and if pushed to the edge of flow rates.. it'll get inconsistant in the piping as it passes the restrictive crush fittings.


More later....

 

1. I'm on a college budget, but my dad is also helping me a little and I would be willing to take the time and save more money to do it right the first time.

2. Drag Radials.

 

On a budget like that I'd start off with high quality solenoids and a in-car button attached to the shifter. Basicly old school nitrous setup w/about a 75-100shot. Activate it out about 2700-3000rpms and you should keep traction and not be too awful hard on the stock rod bearings and piston skirts.

I'd spend the small extra amount of money and get a 15lb bottle.

I'd buy a supply line to support a 150shot

And even though I personally hate them.. I'd get a generic spray plate that goes between the carb and the intake.

That way when you do get some money for a computer controlled controller.. it's as simple as a install and wiring for that controller and hooking up a throttle postition switch. And the high quality solenoids won't have to be replaced.

Doing it this way is "old school" but it'll be the best way to get into nitrous and spend the least in the overall time you'll be using it.

The "risk" is really operator error. Spraying when you should'nt is as easy as touching the button. BE CAREFUL!

Now if you want to just take the extra cost hit now.. install a controller and a throttle position switch. If you can stomach that cost up front.. when you do get around to going with more power it'll be as simple as changing the supply line size and jets.

I'd suggest you buy some "WON" solenoids. Buy them new too. They have a lifetime warrenty for the orig owner and most importantly they can be pulsed for years and years. They are very expensive because of the exchange rate from England to the US... but they are the only ones on the market that you won't have to rebuild or replace. (the one on my ranger has been in three vehicles, 100k miles of michigan roads, and has seen 4 years of year round daily driving. I've personally met the owner of the company "Trevor Langfield" and he told me that they will not only pulse forever. But he pulses them for 20 minutes before shipping out! Shoot.. a NX solenoid won't even pulse for that length of time over it's entire life!

I know that's a hard cost to stomach that much cost on a young mans budget. But within two years you'll easily spend the same amount on replacing or rebuilding NX/NOS/Eldo solenoids and buying nitrous at $4.25+ a LB. AND... those others very well might hang or leak possibly blowing the motor. I've seen it happen.

Going that route and you'll save in two ways. No purge and less nitrous usage. So.. you spending more in one area.. but less in another.

Later today I'll post up some links for the parts I mention.

Rich

 

This is some great info. I have this page saved into my records. Thank you!!

 

I'm not going to call myself an expert on the subject.. however an awful lot of people out there spend thier time knowing & studying what exists. I spend my time questioning *why* things are the way they are.

I've only been involved in nitrous for 4 years now. But I've learned much more than than most "experts" will ever know.

So many people have blown up engines and just blame it on "nitrous". Truth is they have not *controlled* the nitrous.

Honestly.. There are so many mis-understood principals about this that I ought to write a book. Too bad I hate books.


I'll put up some links tonight...

Rich

 

haha, well I consider you an expert. I asked for you and D. specifically for a reason.

 

Oh... I've run across that at nearly every car forum I've been involved with.

Nitrous is like anything else in life. The more control you have over it the better your results will be. The only thing about nitrous though.. it's been handled so cheaply over the years that it's become the "norm". So when I try to get folks to see that a $200 solenoid is the way to go... Instead of listening to *why* its better quality & will actually save them money in a year or two of useage. They throw rocks at me!

In all of my time doing this I only made one purchase mistake. And that was the computer controller. A guy really doesn't have to spend more than $200 to get the same results you'd get from a high dollar one.

Rich

 

Links:

IMO this guy is the worlds formost expert. Trevor Langfield
I've had him visit me in my home/garage and we discussed many things. He's got a UK attitude at times. But! he not only knows his craft... He's litterally dedicated his life to injecting nitrous in both gas and diesel engines. Some of it's top end race related.. and some is street related. He has been a pioneer in the field for many years. Started off pulsing mechanically and now as you can see on his web page he's gone very high tech. He makes and sells nothing but the finest quality. He readily tells people he does not look at cost. Only quality. Nearly all parts are produced by his small company in England. That way he can control, test, and warentee everything he sells.
http://www.noswizard.com/

Now, because of the pound vs dollar exchange rate his stuff is extremely expensive. There are a few people here in the US selling for him. But all parts are made over in his shop and in one way or another it's gonna cost money.

Now.... it's my recommendation **at this time** that these are the solenoids to buy. I'm working with a US based nitrous outfit and am engineering and designing a completely new solenoid. It's a start from scratch design that adresses not only quality.. but costs. I'm sure it would be at least a year before any would be ready to sell.


Link to his Solenoids (aka pulsoids)





OK thats the expensive part. Now IMO the rest of the parts can be bought in the US and won't cost an arm an a leg.

Here is the company I recommend (and work with)
RACETESTED

Denny Henson is the guys name. He's a one man show.. but he is very commited to testing testing and testing. He's build all kinds of flow bench tests to find out just exactly what performs and what doesn't.
btw, Denny is out of the country for the next two weeks. So I doubt he'd answer a call or e-mail til he gets back.

Here is the FJO controller I'm using on the ranger.




And here is my nitrous web page


Rich

 

Ramping up shot size


This is really a simple concept that anyone can understand. Yet, nearly everyone seems to overlook this simple yet DANGEROUS design flaw.

If you have a N and a F solenoid that open at the same time. And the piping from the solenoids to the jet/nozzle are **the same length*** What happens? Well N is at 1000psi and fuel is at 50psi. Gee.. guess which one is going to flow through the pipe, through the jet, and get to the intake valve first. Well.. duh. The nitrous will! This is called "initial leanout" because when both solenoids are opened at the same time the nitrous getting to the cylinder first causes an extremely lean burn for about a second or so. This is a H-U-G-E and S-U-D-D-E-N thermocycle on the heads, head gaskets, valves, and piston face. That ultra lean burn for just a second is also extremely hard on the rod bearing and piston skirts. Those of you who have rebuilt engines that use the popular nitrous kits know what I'm talking about. The top of the rod bearings get squashed and washed out. And the piston skirts get gouged if too few rpms are used.

Well the solution is two fold. 1) Make the N & the F get to the intake valve at the same time. 2) Ramp up the N & F shot size.
You do that by putting the jet as close as is possible to the solenoids valve. And you slowly increase the N & F exiting the nozzle so as not to put a sudden load on the motor.

Check out this VIDEO and you can clearly see what I'm talking about. The vettes motor does a sudden hickup and the rpms flexuate when the nitrous is activated. (check out the 2:43 - 2:45 & 3:00 time frames) This is WRONG WRONG WRONG!! A well controlled nitrous setup would feel no different than if the motor just made that much power naturally. If you feel a "hit" when the nitrous is activated.. your rod bearings HATE YOU!

Control the N & F properly and a stock motor can take more than you think! Trevor in England is **typically** pushing stock passanger car engines to TWICE the power they make from the factory. Sounds outragous I know. But it's true and he's many years of test (and video) to prove it. Here is a VIDEO of him increasing the stock power by an additional 67% on a junk yard car!
And here is thier behind the scene VIDEO showing no nitrous, some nitrous and the 200shot.

Here is a 3 second VIDEO of my caddy ramping up a nitrous shot.

Here is VIDEO of a WON solenoid flowing 100% next to a NX solenoid

Here is a NX flowing w/o a purge first. VIDEO

Here is the same thing but with a purge first. VIDEO



Rich

 

Fuel drop out on a modern FI engine

Most modern electronicly fuel injected engines have very complicated intakes. Usually the upper intake flows like this:

The air enters from the front (or rear) through a throttle body and/or tube
It passes the EGR pipe picking up inert gasses at part throttle (not active at WOT and idle)
Goes into a large open chamber called the plenum
It then gets swept *upwards* into a tube thats as long as the designer could possibly make it. (the length helps low end & mid-range TQ)
It generally sweeps upwards and then bends downward between 180deg and 270deg
It then goes straight down into the lower intake towards the intake valve.

This is a big problem for a "wet" system. The nitrous can easily handle these sweeps because it's in a pure gas form as soon as it leaves the nozzle. However the fuel is in liquid form and it will remain that way until burned in the cylinder. Liquid fuel will always to some degree "drop out" of the air stream when trying to make those contorsions. Gravity is a force that remains constant and we can't change it.

Even the best nozzle that breaks up the fuel into a "fog" cannot overcome basic science. As the fuel droplets progess through the intake system they increasingly attach themselves to the walls of the intake and to each other. The heavier these droplets become the more likely they will "drop out" of the stopping and starting air stream. (valves open and close which makes the air stream stop/start).

This is why when your spraying on a intake of this design, It's far safer to either supply the fuel via the stock (or upgraded) fuel injectors.
Or.... you can go with a "direct port" setup. *Direct port* means that the N & F is injected with a nozzle in every intake tube such that the N&F can only go downward towards the intake valve. There are some risks with this though. The more parts and fittings you have. The more likely it is that something will leak, fail, or have unequal distribution within it'self. It's better than a single point injection.. but it has it's risks as well.

Now personally. I'm a H-U-G-E fan of supplying the fuel with the stock (or upgraded) fuel system on a modern FI engine.
The reasoning really boils down to two major advantages.
1) Cylinder to cylinder distribution.
When you spray a wet shot you are relying on the intake shape to equally distribute liquid gasoline to each cylinder. It was never designed to do that and it has never been tested either! IMO this is risky because some cylinders can run hotter / leaner than others. Unequal distribution of loads will only shorten the life of you engine. It also makes for "dirty" power too. If it's bad enough you can actually feel the motor shake more than normal.

Adding the fuel via the regular injectors without question puts the proper amount of fuel in each cylinder. Remember.. the nitrous is in a pure gaseous form and is usually very consistant from cylinder to cylinder.

2) Intake backfires.
The reason intakes can blow off a motor are a result of two things.
A. Unused fuel coating the walls and residing inside the intake air.
B. Too much timing and/or initial lean out.

Some people don't understand that nitrous does **not** burn. VIDEO PROOF
Fuel is what burns. If a fella sprays a wet shot from a single injector then you have an explosive air/fuel/nitrous charge in the intake system during that time of spray. If you spray a "dry shot" then all you have is the oxidizer portition of the intake charge in the fragile intake. Always remember it takes three things to make fire. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. I prefer my intake to have as few of those elements as is possible!

Now... consider this. The OEMs having done *most of the homework* for you already! They control the timing of fuel injectors & ignition with the PCM. So! They have already done the work of prevent a backfire. Think about it. How often have you seen a modern FI engine "backfire". Almost never!

I know it'll cost more to add the fuel via the factory (or upgraded) injectors / fuel system. But it's MUCH safer and IMO really doesn't shorten the life of the engine if done properly. So far I've proven it not only works.. but works very well up to a 60shot on my 06 4.0L w/returnless fuel system. At this point I can push more than enough fuel too. Next year I might try to push a 75shot just to see if I can get the stock fuel system to keep up. Besides there is a local 5.0L ranger who thinks he's tough stuff. Time for a smack down come next spring.

Rich

 

Thank you for making this a sticky, whoever did it.

 

Good post on the giggle gas.

 

I got a dry system left over from my Mustang, think I should stick it in the Ranger. I think the only 2 things I will need to do is change the plugs and go up to premium gas and use maybe a 60 shot jet.

 

You need to read my tuning posts first. There is no way you can throw a 60dry shot on it and make it live. **At the very least** you need to command a 0.7 Lambda and add 20psi of TV to the tranny for the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts.

I'd also suggest changing the fuel fiter.

Rich

 

I don't know too much about nitrous, but I have seen what it can do to an engine if not properly installed. I've also seen some guys run some wicked times on it.

 

Your understanding is quite the norm.

The real "problem" is not controlling it. And that takes money. More money than most people are willing to spend *up front*. If only most people would take the time to understand the benfiets of spending a bit more up front... I'd dare say that most engines would never have a problem. Not only does the risk go down.. but in the coarse of two years you'll be spending less than having gone the cheap route at the start!

Here is a simple thing to understand (another tip)

When you activate a fixed hit kit (like NOS, NX, ect..) at say 2500rpms. Your putting twice the amount of nitrous into the engine than it's seeing at 5000rpms. For example take a 4.0L ranger motor. Most guys who are willing to spray would accept that a 50 or even 75 shot is possible.
Well.. when you activate that much at 2500rpms it's EXACTLY like spraying a 100 to 150 shot at 5000rpms. Now, how many guys who spray would think you could put a 150shot on a stock ranger? But yet.. that's exactly what they are doing to the rod bearings, rods, crank, ect... when you activate a fixed hit system at low rpms.

I'm slowly ramping a 60shot. It starts off in the 10hp area and then grows with rpms. All in all I'm acutally being very gentle on my truck. Traction is easily dialed in and I'm busting mid 14s in a daily driver 4x4. IMO that's impressive.

Rich

 

Well I know what you're saying rich. It takes alot of bread on a "proper" nos set up. Those guys that destroy their engines pretty much just throw nos at a stock motor and they're not checking for what tuning set up is needed and wether or not they need other components to install nos. The results are nasty. The blocks are 1/2 melted and or warped beyond repair. The pistons are usually Barbcued to the extreme. You don't even want to know what it can do camshafts and cranks it aint pretty and yet these guys tell me I don't know nothing. I repsond to them then how come I'm racing and your still setting here with a destroyed engine. The people that work the races finally told them of my back ground and now they won't quit calling.

 

You don't know anything, you just throw out random facts that you get out of a Import magazine.

 

Oh really! watch who you talk about. I didn't get this overnight:




Next time learn about someone before you post. That burns me up and sets me off to no end. I got this in Nashville, TN after about a year's worth of hands on instruction, written tests out the wasu, and alot of testing where there were only myself and the person overseeing the test taking were allowed in the room.

 

This is a very usefull thread. Please, lets keep it that way. I respectfully ask that you two remove the comments and picture. Please.. I've put a lot of time into this subject and would like to keep this thread a usefull learning tool.


This does get me thinking of failures though!
When you place an impact on the parts of a car they may not be able to stand up to those shock loads.


Picture a 16 penny nail thats already 1/2 way into a 2x4.
Now take a 16lb hammer, raise it 3 inches above the head of the nail and strike it as hard as you can. You *might* move it.
Now picture that same hammer raised 2ft above the nail and strike it as hard as you can. It will definately move and just might fall to one side or the other because the force was not straight down and was just too much for it to handle.
This is the whole point in controlling nitrous. Ramping shot size is like little hammer strikes vs a big ole wallap all at once.

If you slowly ramp up the motor load, the engine can usually take more than you might think possible! Trevor in england has proven this many times. I'm blown away than he can usually start off with a 50% increase in power. And wind up between 75% and 100% power increases on otherwise stock cars. He's even pushed one to a 175% power increase before the motor broke.
The only two things he really adresses is spark plugs and making sure enough fuel can be supplied. Plugs are cheap and easy to replace. Getting the fuel system up to snuff however can get expensive. Consider this though, what burns? It's not the air, its not the nitrous, and it's not the source of ignition. It's the fuel! If you can't get enough fuel into the engine.. your only going to lean out the a/n/f charge and break parts.

Me personally.. I have a "old school" rule of thumb I have developed over the years. I have in the past limited power increases to 35% over what was delivered in stock form. I had for years considered that my power limit. And instead of adding more power to go quicker.. I focused on putting it down to the pavement.

Currently on the ranger I'm at 43% of a power increase (297hp now) and next summer I'll up it to 51% (314hp). She's got 43k miles on it and I've not seen one hint of any damage to my little 4.0L ranger.


Here is a list of what will typically fail with a fixed hit shot of nitrous.
(fixed hits always lean out a a/n/f charge for a second or two when activated. That makes the burn ultra hot and extremely powerful. That.. breaks parts)

FIXED HITS AND INITIAL LEAN OUTS
Broken rods is the number one danger! When a rod breaks you'll be lucky to walk away with a intake manifold and some valve covers. Interestingly too.. rods almost always break on the down stroke.
High wear on piston skirts. Piston slap and blow by become the norm.
High wear on the rod bearings. Usually the only down side is reduced life of the motor.
High loads on the main bearings. Usually not a failure.
Piston faces get too hot and will spatter aluminum. This can be seen as specs on the spark plugs.
Lifted heads The main head bolts stretch. Once they have.. you'll never get to the same power level w/o replacing them. And it's likely you'll have a headgasket leak too.
Auto tranny clutchs can slip. This is not all that bad actually because it can help remove shock to the rest of the drivetrain. However ETs will get slower and slower.
Manual tranny gears can break. (any of you T5 mustang guys ever break 3rd? I have)

And one last thought about shock loads. Shock loads are not a one time event. Those shock loads rebound *back into the tranny / engine*. A manual tranny car with a fixed hit kit and spraying off the line is the absolute worst possible shock loading you can do. Thats why you see and know of so many people who will only spray after they have left the line by about 5-10ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_force


RAMPING NITROUS

The only real "downside" to ramping is the cost of controlling nitrous and fuel.
You'll easily spend double the money up front. But if efficiency is paid attention to you can recoup that cost in 1 - 2 years of spraying.
Honestly.. there are no other down sides. If your willing to increase power by 50%.. fixed hit kits are dangerous. (75shot on a 4.0L ranger) But ramping it is easily doable and you'll have no side effects if the air, fuel, spark, and nitrous are all in balance.


Rich

 

Agreed. Thanks Rich!

 

Not much mentioned about the actual facts of nitrous. I am quite surprised. I think this thread has holes like swiss cheese. You need to talk about ignition timing and camshaft selection, torque convertors, dry shots vs wet shots, Jetting for carbs, or tuning for more fuel with fuel injection, what nitrous does, and how it affects the performance of the engine. This thread has alot of usless info, and not enough needed info. Nitrous does two things. It cools down the charge allowing for more air to be put into the engine for combustion. It also has a reaction, and the oxygen molecule breaks off of the nitrogen molecules and adds more oxygen to the air fuel ratio. So you need to compensate for the added air with more fuel, and all your doing is adding more air and fuel to the engine. By doing this you need to retard your timing just like with turbo's and superchargers, so I wouldn't go on and on about rpms to use at, or bearing loads. All that is relavant, but it doesn't explain how nitrous works. Forged pistons and rods are allways a good idea, and shouldn't be overlooked. Its just the same as with any engine. You make more power by addng fuel and air to the engine, and eventually you need to upgrade factory parts. Some parts are more important than others, but usally pistons rings, bearings, rods and bolts should be done. You can get lucky sometimes, but run out of fuel in top rpms with N20 and kiss your motor goodbye. Not saying you didn't give good advice, but you left alot out. This isn't my subject, but I do know there is more to know.