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Forced Induction & N20 Tech General discussion of forced induction and nitrous for the Ford Ranger.

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Old 07-16-2008
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Nitrous now working

Well, I've not really posted about this yet. But I've added a nitrous setup to my ranger.

For those of you who don't know my background on the subject.. I've not going to call myself a "guru" about nitrous. But ...I have been using it and designing / engineering direct port kits as well as single injector kits for a few years now. I've learned a lot from Tevor Langfield (Wizard of NOS in england) and a lot from Denny Hanson at www.racetested.com Lets just say I know more than the average bear.

There are so many pre-concieved ideas about nitrous. And nearly all the ones I come accross are based on faulty science.
"instant on" "stages" ect... and the fear of using nitrous is a real killer of the product. So many people think they understand how to use it.. but yet have no clue whats actually taking place. I've learned from the best and am going to take this 4x4 daily driver ranger into the mid 14s w/o any fear or worries of longevity of the truck.



As far as the ranger goes. I'm working with Denny and we are developing a low shot size system for street car use. I have several advantages in they kit we are designing.

1) No purge needed (nearly doubles the amount of nitrous you can use. Absolutely no wasted nitrous!)
2) Safe for the stock motor and safe against induction backfires
3) Ramping the shot size based on time or rpms (it's not a fixed hit and not "stages". Neither are "window switches needed")
4) Lower bottle pressures. (950psi)
5) And most important. Keeping the nitrous dense (liquid) until it reaches the injector.

This kit we are working on is a dry kit. I'm adding fuel via the tune. Shooting wet in this intake is dangerous from two points.
1) Fuel drop out means a *possible* lean and unequally distributed (cyl to cyl)
2) Induction backfire (these are commonly mis understood. But sufice it to say we don't want to blow off a complicated plastic intake!)

Status:
So far I'm shooting a 35 shot to get this lined out and the tune adjusted.
Once Fred at rouge performance gets this done I'm stepping up to a 50shot to see what the fuel system can handle. If it does that well I'll step it up to a 70shot. That's going to be my limit for this stock motor. At that level I may need to upgrade the fuel pump and filter. Just not sure til we get there.

I still need to update MY NITROUS WEB PAGE with new pictures of how I'd configured everything. Just know this. It's 100% hidden. I have a 15lb bottle and you can't see it. Nor can you see it even with the hood open. Stealth...


Here is a wideband datalog of the current "Henson" tune I have. Both off and on a ramped 35 shot. What a joke. Last fall I told him I thought it was going lean up top. And boy was I right! (Fred is fixing all this soon)


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Old 07-16-2008
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Nice work, I like how you correctly test everything!

Brenton
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2008
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Rich, I have to say, I've never seen anybody wreck a warranty like you have!

Good luck!
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Old 07-16-2008
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To be frank.. I've done 100 times more measuring than I've posted here. Its just way to big of a project to clearly describe in one post.


At this point I've got everything in place and just need to find the limit of the stock fuel system. At this point I'm thinking a 50 shot is doable w/o fuel system mods. A 70shot though may require a new pump and high flow filter.
We'll see when we get to that point.

btw, the tires bark on the 1-2 shift now.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, I have to say, I've never seen anybody wreck a warranty like you have!

Good luck!
LOL.. Actually I could care less about a warrenty. I'd rather fix it myself. Besides I'm getting older now. I'm tired of relying on other people and being limited by self imposed inabitions. I accept all responsibility for my actions and am getin-er-done! Having fun the whole way too!

Hopefully I can change some folks perceptions about nitrous in all this. If setup properly it's a very safe and effective way to add power in short bursts.
The key is understanding what does what and what the limits are. Heed those two and you can spray for many many years on a stock motor.


Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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nice Rich, just plain awesome.

How much do you have invested in the setup if you dont mind me asking?
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Old 07-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
LOL.. Actually I could care less about a warrenty. I'd rather fix it myself.

Rich
Rich, it must be nice to be independently wealthy to be able to buy an engine if it blows, or a tranny if it goes out!

Getting older? It sounds like you might be going into a second childhood if chirping the tires amuses you!
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Old 07-16-2008
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You may have an answer for me. Is yours a 35HP direct port shot? I was involved in debates in the past. Noone (at the time) made a direct port lower than 75 HP. My thoughts were the nozzle size would be so small (35 HP divided by 6 jets equals ruffly 6 HP per jet) that I had feared a ballooning effect. When you shut the system off (wet shot so the extra fuel cuts off) the nitrous would still flow until the pressure in the short tube basically deflated if you will.

Is there any merit to that? This was years ago. In regards to a 200 HP engine I don't know that any damage would occur. The discussions were centered around a 85 - 100 car which changes things.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Zach,

1/2 of these parts are from off the caddy. 1/4 are being given to me free. And the other 1/4 are purchased recently.

Um.. this is a dry shot which means only one solenoid. And the 15lb bottle is a "upgrade" (which I highly recommend if you go to the track)
Then I have a racetested spicifically programmed FJO controller.
Then are all the little things like kevlar supply pipe and quick connect SS fittings.

So.. if this kit were to be sold at retail. I'd guess it would cost in the $600-$700 area. If a guy wanted a wet side to this.. that would add $200.

The price will come down though. The problem is that these solenoids are produced in england. They are superior to anything you can buy in the US because they can be pulsed all day long. (do that to a NX solenoid!)
They are expensive to begin with + the exchange rate just kills the price.

Denny is working with the solenoid makes here in the US to come up with a unit that can live like the WON noid can. The problem is that the noids they make for the big name companies are made very cheap. They can't be pulsed for very long w/o needing rebuilding. Even NX noids.
We are slowly designing a completely new noid that can be pulsed all day long and not cost an arm and a leg. I'm doing that this summer/fall.

Which... brings up a whole point. Ramping nitrous. Ramping is what saves your engine and actually allows for bigger than normal shot sizes. Usually you don't have to back timing down either.
Consider this. A fixed hit 50shot activated at 2500rpms. Well.. if the motor will take that much. It would take a 100shot at 5000rpms. But those kinds of numbers scare people. Truth is when you ramp nitrous you don't *shock* the crank/rods/pistons/bearings. The old school way to get around that was to use stages.
What I use is infinately adjustible. I can simply drag and smooth a on screen graph with a laptop. I can (and do) start off with a 10hp plume of nitrous and ramp it up based on what I want. I can even tie it to the rpms if I wanted to. So as the motor climbed in rpms and then fell with shifts.. the amount of nitrous reaching the cylinder would be the same no matter the rpm.

Oh and btw.. this solenoid I've got in the ranger has about 4 years on it and close to 80,000 miles of vibration on it. Summer heat, winter cold, michigan roads. Still fires and meters perfectly everytime. They are litteraly the best in the world and have a lifetime warrenty as well.
WEB LINK

Bob,
I'm not rich. But I do have a good income. A new motor or tranny would hurt. Hurt a lot. But... preventing failures is what I'm all about! In all my years and 20+ cars I've only lost one motor. And at that it was only a timing gear. I took the motor apart and rebuilt it for $350. (2.5L iron dukes were notorious for that failure)

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 07-16-2008 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graniteguy View Post
You may have an answer for me. Is yours a 35HP direct port shot? I was involved in debates in the past. Noone (at the time) made a direct port lower than 75 HP. My thoughts were the nozzle size would be so small (35 HP divided by 6 jets equals ruffly 6 HP per jet) that I had feared a ballooning effect. When you shut the system off (wet shot so the extra fuel cuts off) the nitrous would still flow until the pressure in the short tube basically deflated if you will.

Is there any merit to that? This was years ago. In regards to a 200 HP engine I don't know that any damage would occur. The discussions were centered around a 85 - 100 car which changes things.
On my Lightning I've designed/engineered the DP kit for it. It supports 100 up to 450.

In our studies (all documented on video) the problem is supplying equal amounts of fuel on a DP WHILE shooting small. You understanding in that is correct. As far as balloning.. you lost me lost there?

On the ranger... there is a kevlar 2.5mm supply pipe from the bottle to the solenoid.
the jet is in the solenoid and measures 0.7mm. And then I have a 1.8mm pipe from the sol/jet to the nozzle (smallest I can get). The nozzle is located 1/2 way between the MAF and the TB. (in the K&N intake elbo)

I'd never shoot a DP at anything less than 100hp worth. And at that I'd use smaller than normal pipe sizes. It's all about delta P and cyl to cyl distribution.

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 07-16-2008 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Quote:
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It sounds like you might be going into a second childhood if chirping the tires amuses you!
No.. I've pretty much been amuzed by that since I was 7-8yrs old.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
On my Lightning I've designed/engineered the DP kit for it. It supports 100 up to 450.

In our studies (all documented on video) the problem is supplying equal amounts of fuel on a DP and shooting small. You understanding in that is correct. As far as balloning.. I'm lost there?

On the ranger... there is a 2.5mm supply pipe from the bottle to the solenoid.
the jet is in the solenoid. And then I have a 1.8mm pipe from the sol/jet to the nozzle. The nozzle it 1/2 way between the MAF and the TB.

I've never shoot a DP at anything less than 100hp worth. And at that I'd use smaller than normal pipe sizes. It's all about delta P.

Rich


ok. so you are using a single nozzle. By direct port I thought you were using 6 nozzles.

I think you answered the question. On the ballooning-If you shoot a 35 HP direct port (6 nozzles), the nitrous will flow longer than a 75 shot (after you shut down the system)because the remaining pressure from the tubes has to exit through a smaller nozzle. I think you said the solution is a smaller tube going to the nozzle. It can correct the time differential (fuel nozzle is depleted before the nitrous nozzle is depleted) which would put you lean.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Sorry... I tend to give all encompassing answers. Yes mine is a single nozzle setup. DP kits really ought to be reserved for 150+ hp shots IMO.


The jet placement is different on my setups. I have it in the end of the solenoid.
Putting the jet in the nozzle ignores basic science and yet.. is the norm. Problems like you mention are the result. You have two other and more prominate problems. 1) Purging is needed. 2) And even after a purge you still have a phase change problem / timeframe until the nitrous is flowing pure liquid through the nozzle. This is evidenced by a "hit". A sudden surge is very hard on the recipricating parts. Especially the rod bearings.

Typical kits don't focus on keeping both fuel and nitrous in liquid form from the bottom of the bottle/tank to the nozzle **until** full flow is achieved. My designs focus on keeping it liquid when and only when the solenoid is open (including pulsing). Even in heat soak situations I get no more than .2 seconds of gaseous flow. And that's w/o a purge! Try that with a "typical" kit.

I'll post up a video here in a week or two that shows how soft the plume "grows". And yet.. it's pure liquid during the whole ramp.

Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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Glad to see you let the cat out of the bag. Can't wait to chase you truck down the strip!
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Old 07-16-2008
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Can't wait to chase you truck down the strip!

Hope you like 06 tailights.
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Old 07-16-2008
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sounds like some great info, rich!

rich was of course the guy that turned me on to racetested/won several years ago. i can vouch for everything he's saying about those pulsoids. i still have the entire kit.

i hope you and denny are able to secure a manufacturer for some better us solenoids!!
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Old 07-16-2008
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That all makes sense. You avoid what i call ballooning by having the jet in the solenoid. That is pretty brilliant IMO.
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Old 07-16-2008
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i hope you and denny are able to secure a manufacturer for some better us solenoids!!

Last year we did a stupid amount of testing. We learned an awful lot.. but the amount of testing was just too much for guys doing this in our off hours. Denny has cooled his jets for now. Me too.
But we have been able to take past knowledge and well as what we learned recently and have come up with some solid and repeatable observations.

The areas that have been significantly improved (since you bought one) are the quick connect fittings, kevlar pipes, and the recently improved controllers.
This FJO I have is nice. Its definately easier to use. Gotta have a laptop though.

Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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That all makes sense. You avoid what i call ballooning by having the jet in the solenoid. That is pretty brilliant IMO.

This idea/knowledge does not come from me. It's the invention of Trevor Langfield in the UK. And he figured it out old school too. On the dyno and on the strip.

Another little side benfiet is that you don't have to delay the nitrous solenoid on a wet kit. You can fire them both at the same time and get both n20 and fuel reaching the nozzle at the same moment.

Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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ok after reading all this, im definitaly in if you sell these, but just wanted to ask, if you had all the internals worked and stuff like the stage 3 heads and stuff from super six motorsports, what kind of hp could you expect and would you be able to do a larger shot?
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Old 07-16-2008
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ok after reading all this, im definitaly in if you sell these, but just wanted to ask, if you had all the internals worked and stuff like the stage 3 heads and stuff from super six motorsports, what kind of hp could you expect and would you be able to do a larger shot?
I don't and won't sell anything. I'm just a gear head toying with my ranger.
If you want.. all of these parts can be bought at racetested.com Tell Denny I sent ya and he'll take care of ya.

And if you choose a different brand that's fine too. I'll always help in anyway I can. I got too much learn-in under my belt in this subject. And I just find it fun to mess with.

On your engine. Do you have a stock short block? And what head bolts/studs doy you have? What about the main bolts/studs? Rod bolts/studs?

If you just have a head/cam package and it's still on a stock bottom end.. I'd want to know what the valve overlap is. And no matter what.. on a stock bottom end I'd not exceed 300 crank HP.

IN my years I've developed some rules of thumb. One of which.. a stock block can only handle about 35%-40% of a power increase. Above that and you gotta have the balance of rpms, temps, and loads extremely well balanced. Most folks will blow a engine when trying to go more than 40% of a power increase.

Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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Spray for 14s?

Looks like youve got plenty of knowledge available to make an awesome setup. I want to eventually spray my 4L but i want the s/c more. with no internals readially available i dont want to get spray happy and blow things right now.
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Old 07-16-2008
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Spray for 14s?
THIS VIDEO was of a nearly perfect run. My 1-2 shift rpms were a little low but the ET won't drop. Trap speed ought to be 1 mph higher.

So yeah.. it's gonna take a 35-40 shot to get me into a 14.9 I'm hoping a 50 shot will get me into a 14.7 or so. Maybe a little quicker if everything is just perfect. (hoping to find out here real soon!)

Rich
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Old 07-16-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
THIS VIDEO was of a nearly perfect run. My 1-2 shift rpms were a little low but the ET won't drop. Trap speed ought to be 1 mph higher.

So yeah.. it's gonna take a 35-40 shot to get me into a 14.9 I'm hoping a 50 shot will get me into a 14.7 or so. Maybe a little quicker if everything is just perfect. (hoping to find out here real soon!)

Rich

what are you expecting your new wheels and tires to do to this time? its gonna hurt it.

good read Rich.
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Old 07-16-2008
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did you when in the video?
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