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Forced Induction & N20 Tech General discussion of forced induction and nitrous for the Ford Ranger.

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  #26  
Old 07-16-2008
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I won't run it at the strip on the new tires.

Ranger.. "did you when in the video?"

What?
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2008
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i think he means did you win. and by the looks of your time slip, you beat the other vehicle with a 15.5 to a 15.9
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2008
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When at the strip I hardly ever actually race someone else. I pretty much only go for best ETs and to just have some fun. I really don't care much unless it's someone I know and am closely matched with.
Or.. if I'm in the Lightning. When I take it.. I'm definately gunning for some of the quick street cars. (high 11s on street tires)

The guy next to me had a chrysler 4dr car that was not street legal. He works at the B&A and got it as a toy/racer for his son to learn drag racing with. He stripped it and trailers it to the track with the boy. Nice guy..
He didn't have any exhaust on it so you can't hear my truck at all. Oh well.

Rich
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2008
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I've been looking at my 02 sensor reading (scanguage) in conjunction with the wideband. They do match each other in a repeatable manner.

I've always been told it's not accurate to tune by. But what I see is repeatable. Repeatable enough that after I get my tune lined out I'm just going to use the scanguage as a "reality check" when I'm spraying.



Here is what I've seen for two days now.

.85 = 12:0

0.8 = 12.5

.75 = 13.0

.65 = 13.5

.6 = 14.0

.55 = 14.5

.5 = 15.0



btw, when it gets close to stoich & then crosses over to the lean side.. it does so very quickly. Basicly once it gets into the 0.6x area.. it becomes what I'd call "hyper sensitive".
In order to get an accurate reading on the scanguage you'll need to turn the rate to high. And then set all four readings to one of the front 02s.

I know it's not perfect. But in a poor mans toolbox.. its a decent way to get you into the ball park.



Rich
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  #30  
Old 07-21-2008
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Still waiting on Fred to get back to me.

So tonight I put in Doug's DD tune. (Bama chips)
His timing is a solid 5-7 degrees less than Hensons. But his A/F ratios are simply awsome. I am able to tune it to what ever I want.
Get this.. at full enrichment I can make it go to 10.8 at WOT. Now that's F-A-T for a stock naturally asperiated engine.

Anyway I played with the fuel a bit and came up with a nice fat and safe ratio for a 35 shot. I just wish this tune had more timing. Oh well.. Fred is supposed to be getting me lined out.

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 07-22-2008 at 09:45 AM.
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  #31  
Old 07-28-2008
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I updated MY WEB PAGE with some new pics.

Btw, I switched the stock plugs for a new set of denso IT20s sat. I was supprised to see the A/F ratios get leaner both on nitrous and off! I reckon that's good as I'm most likely burning more of the fuel at WOT. Still need to do some research on that one..

I'm still waiting to get the tune lined out. So for now I can only do short bursts of a 35shot.

Rich
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  #32  
Old 07-29-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
I updated MY WEB PAGE with some new pics.

Btw, I switched the stock plugs for a new set of denso IT20s sat. I was supprised to see the A/F ratios get leaner both on nitrous and off! I reckon that's good as I'm most likely burning more of the fuel at WOT. Still need to do some research on that one..

I'm still waiting to get the tune lined out. So for now I can only do short bursts of a 35shot.

Rich


I thought you were running Bosch plugs? Did you switch those back to the Motorcrafts?
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  #33  
Old 07-29-2008
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I've been using the stock plugs and stock tune as well during all this nitrous setup.

I need to use what Ford set in place as my "standard" to guide all future mods by. It's my point of reference.

A few interesting things I've noticed in the last few days:

With my current mods, the stock a/f ratio is a flat 13.1
The stock tune has very little timing! (15 and climbs to 19)
These aftermarket tunes (bama and henson) all go lean up top.
The bama tune is definately a better and more controlable tune.
Henson tune has a ton of timing and not enough fuel at low rpms.
Switching to a new (one range colder) set of Denso IT20s has made for a much smoother idle. And my a/f ratio at WOT is definately leaner. Even on full rich in the bama tune will approach stoich at 5000+ rpms.
They do miss a little in the morning when the motor is bone cold.
They have a smoother and noticable power increase when at heavy throttle.
A 35shot ramped for 1/2 a second gives a very nice and noticeable power increase w/o being too hard and loosing traction off the line.
(ramping does nto give a "hit" of power. It's just a smooth progression that feels about like the difference in 50% throttle and 80% throttle)


Rich
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  #34  
Old 07-29-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
They do miss a little in the morning when the motor is bone cold.

Rich

If they are misfiring now, wait until winter time, I suspect they will become fauled with carbon due to the length of time running open loop, and running too cold.

It seems like the Motorcraft plug heat range has been optimized for each engine in 2006 Rangers. SP439 for 2.3L, SP432 for 3.0L, and SP412 for 4.0L. Denso
calls out only one P/N for all 3 engines: IT16.

Last edited by Takeda; 07-29-2008 at 08:18 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-29-2008
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Yes the 16 is the proper heat range for a stock motor.

I'm planning on taking this up to a 50shot and possibly a 70shot. I NEED a colder plug!

If it does stumble in the winter I'll switch back. Can't spray then anyway.

BTW, the stock plugs (since new) had a small stumble in the winter. Even hard starting at times w/10% ethanol fuels.

Rich
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  #36  
Old 07-29-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Yes the 16 is the proper heat range for a stock motor.

I'm planning on taking this up to a 50shot and possibly a 70shot. I NEED a colder plug!

If it does stumble in the winter I'll switch back. Can't spray then anyway.

BTW, the stock plugs (since new) had a small stumble in the winter. Even hard starting at times w/10% ethanol fuels.

Rich
You keep saying "stock" plugs, and I know you have previously posted you were running Bosch. What happened to the Bosch?

What % of the time are you spraying, and what % of the time are you not spraying?
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  #37  
Old 07-29-2008
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Percentage of time? Oh I'd say 1% of the time. If that. Why?

btw, I bought a set of Bosch +2 for the ranger and never put them in. I meant too.. just never got around to it.
If these densos are too cold for winter time I'll try the bosch +2. (just to see first hand all the "problems" that folks seem to have with them)
Oh and I've found that the bosch +2 plugs tend to run a bit hotter than the stock plugs. I've run boost and sprayed on them too. Won't do that again. They just run too hot.

Rich
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
If they are misfiring now, wait until winter time, I suspect they will become fauled with carbon due to the length of time running open loop, and running too cold.
Bob, I was not aware of just exactly how long it runs in OP. So I monitored it. Two mornings and evenings in a row. 10-15 seconds after start up is when it switches over to CL. During which it idles and runs perfectly.

It only seems to get a little sluggish about 1 to 1.5 minutes after startup and I get up to about 45-50mph. Typical "cold plug" behavior in my experience. And it only does that in the mornings. Not the evenings.


Again your "point" is not backed up by science. Or... I should qualify that, and say that not at least during the summer is your point valid. Winter OP/CL is something I'll have to look at when the temps drop.

Rich
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  #39  
Old 08-02-2008
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Bob, I was not aware of just exactly how long it runs in OP. So I monitored it. Two mornings and evenings in a row. 10-15 seconds after start up is when it switches over to CL. During which it idles and runs perfectly.

It only seems to get a little sluggish about 1 to 1.5 minutes after startup and I get up to about 45-50mph. Typical "cold plug" behavior in my experience. And it only does that in the mornings. Not the evenings.


Again your "point" is not backed up by science. Or... I should qualify that, and say that not at least during the summer is your point valid. Winter OP/CL is something I'll have to look at when the temps drop.

Rich
Rich, the signal sfrom the IAT and ECT sensor are also going to cause a richer mixture while the engine is cold. My point, your plugs are too cold, and you shouldn't be getting a misfire at any time! Even if you were using the "recommended" Denso plugs (IT16), the heat range wouldn't be optimized like the Motorcrafts for the 4.0L:
SP439 for 2.3L, SP432 for 3.0L, and SP412 for 4.0L

Installing the Bosch plugs was your first mistake!

Last edited by Takeda; 08-02-2008 at 06:42 AM.
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  #40  
Old 08-02-2008
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Just as I decide to get slower, you get faster.

I've thought about hookin juice up on mine, but I'm not about fast as much as I am consistant.

Played with deep staging last night and was cutting real nice lights all night... till 3rd round when i cut a -.076 light.

I'm anxcious to see how the juice works for ya.
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  #41  
Old 08-03-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, the signal sfrom the IAT and ECT sensor are also going to cause a richer mixture while the engine is cold. My point, your plugs are too cold, and you shouldn't be getting a misfire at any time! Even if you were using the "recommended" Denso plugs (IT16), the heat range wouldn't be optimized like the Motorcrafts for the 4.0L:
SP439 for 2.3L, SP432 for 3.0L, and SP412 for 4.0L

Installing the Bosch plugs was your first mistake!
Bob your wrong on several accounts. First off the stumbling is not a misfire.
It's more a roughness. It did the same thing with the stock plugs. Albeit a little less. But still the same thing and at the same stretch of road every morning.

The A/F is "supposed to be rich" during warm up. However looking at my wideband it's actually getting up to stoich within 30 seconds. When its "rough" I'm at stoich.

Bob there is old school way of thinking. And there is modern high tech ways of **observing** what's actually happening. Your stuck on the "cow paths" that have been prevelant in automotive history. Those things were true for a long time. But bob with modern electronic controls you simply can't count on those anymore.

I choose to look at evidence instead of the way *I think it should be*.

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 08-03-2008 at 07:27 AM.
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  #42  
Old 08-03-2008
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Originally Posted by thesoundmaster View Post
Just as I decide to get slower, you get faster.

I've thought about hookin juice up on mine, but I'm not about fast as much as I am consistant.

Played with deep staging last night and was cutting real nice lights all night... till 3rd round when i cut a -.076 light.

I'm anxcious to see how the juice works for ya.
Deep staging is good for consistancy and cutting good lights. I do the opposite and have for years. I stage shallow to get a slightly better ET and trap speed. After a while you get a knack for it. I can usually cut 0.05 to 0.10 lights and have the benfiet of that rolling start.

On street nights there is a bit of a psyological advantage too. More than a few times I've had others red light because I started to move first.
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  #43  
Old 08-03-2008
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Oh btw, I'm sure Fred is a good tuner. Guess I won't find out though. He won't call me, has only returned two e-mails, and to date has not done what he said he do to get me going. I've been trying to get a tune out of him for two weeks now and he's just not moving towards getting me setup. Sorry to report this. But it's the truth.

Instead I've decided to just stop dealing with all these "tuners". How aggrivating! (Lightning and ranger)

I bought the SCT pro racer and will just tune them both myself.
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  #44  
Old 08-03-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob your wrong on several accounts. First off the stumbling is not a misfire.
It's more a roughness. It did the same thing with the stock plugs. Albeit a little less. But still the same thing and at the same stretch of road every morning.

The A/F is "supposed to be rich" during warm up. However looking at my wideband it's actually getting up to stoich within 30 seconds. When its "rough" I'm at stoich.

Bob there is old school way of thinking. And there is modern high tech ways of **observing** what's actually happening. Your stuck on the "cow paths" that have been prevelant in automotive history. Those things were true for a long time. But bob with modern electronic controls you simply can't count on those anymore.

I choose to look at evidence instead of the way *I think it should be*.

Rich
Rich, over and over you have shown your engineering ability.....First, not knowing that a battery voltage of 12.3V would discharge the battery....thinking that a thermostat had to close for the coolant to cool in the radiator, and now trying to justify running the WRONG plugs!!

It's amazing that you would want to run a plug for "spraying", which you have said would be 1% of the time, so you are running a plug that will cause problems 99% of the time.....

You are still avoiding the Bosch plug issue!! Why don't you try the correct Motorcraft plugs (NOT BOSCH) for your engine.......And B.T.W....if it is "stumbling" misfire is happening, period!

Last edited by Takeda; 08-03-2008 at 07:39 AM.
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  #45  
Old 08-03-2008
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Rich, over and over you have shown your engineering ability.....First, not knowing that a battery voltage of 12.3V would discharge the battery!
I never claimed that it would'nt? Bob you selectively pick out "points" that you imagine. Not fact!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
thinking that a thermostat had to close for the coolant to cool in the radiator
What in the world are you talking about?? Air flow across a rad cools the coolant in it at a given rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
and now trying to justify running the WRONG plugs!!

It's amazing that you would want to run a plug for "spraying", which you have said would be 1% of the time, so you are running a plug that will cause problems 99% of the time.....

Bob, you can't increase the pressure in the cumbstion chamber without protecting for it. It takes a *****balance**** of three things to make fire.

Quote:
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You are still avoiding the Bosch plug issue!! Why don't you try the correct Motorcraft plugs for your engine.......And B.T.W....if it is "stumbling" misfire is happening, period!
Avoiding the issue? What are you talking about Bob. I've not avoided anything.

Misfiring. No Bob. A misfire is when the fuel does not burn. What it's doing is not completely burning the fuel. This can be seen in spikes on the wideband.
A misfire will result in much higher spikes.

Again I use science and observations. You are just stuck on the "Bobs way of thinking".

Bob, consider this. You have formed your thoughts and drawn conclusions on what? I suggest it's based on past observations? Observations of what people taught you / told you. Then you've compaired these "learned" things to what you've observed. No?

Well.. Bob I do the exact same thing! But instead of old school "truths" I look at modern science. Bob there are so many things that your missing when you don't embrace what the modern PCM (and test equipment) can tell you.

Here is one for you Bob. How do you tell the compression ratio per cylinder without physically measuring it?

Rich
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  #46  
Old 08-03-2008
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Rich, over and over you have shown your engineering ability.....First, not knowing that a battery voltage of 12.3V would discharge the battery....thinking that a thermostat had to close for the coolant to cool in the radiator, and now trying to justify running the WRONG plugs!!

Why don't you try the correct Motorcraft plugs (NOT BOSCH) for your engine..
(sarcasm)
Platinum plugs and nitrous.. Theres a winning combination!
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  #47  
Old 08-03-2008
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Deep staging is good for consistancy and cutting good lights. I do the opposite and have for years. I stage shallow to get a slightly better ET and trap speed. After a while you get a knack for it. I can usually cut 0.05 to 0.10 lights and have the benfiet of that rolling start.

On street nights there is a bit of a psyological advantage too. More than a few times I've had others red light because I started to move first.

My issue, and the reason I was playing with deep staging, is when I had my 32's on the alcoa's (not a big difference but drastic enough to throw everything off) I staged just enough to get both sets of my lights on, basically the bottom flickering. I cut around a .062 to.092 lights with that, as well as the .257, .124, so forth, but could almost predict on the exact temp what my truck would run. Since I jumped to my steelies and 33's, at truckfest, the first day running them with them on, I was cutting .457, .677 lights. So, deepstaging now, if I can nail my consistancy, should help me a bit. Unfortunately this all comes at the end of the season
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  #48  
Old 08-04-2008
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Bob, consider this. You have formed your thoughts and drawn conclusions on what? I suggest it's based on past observations? Observations of what people taught you / told you. Then you've compaired these "learned" things to what you've observed. No?

Well.. Bob I do the exact same thing! But instead of old school "truths" I look at modern science. Bob there are so many things that your missing when you don't embrace what the modern PCM (and test equipment) can tell you.
Again, Rich, you have shown that you don't understand "old school" principles of physics, and mechanics! Do you call playing with a tuner(s) you bought modern science? And what tops it all off with you Rich, you didn't know any better than to buy a POS GM product!! B.T.W., you have ignored my questions in my post about the Northstar TSBs!!


Just as an example of my understanding of electronic engine control, several years ago a friend of mine's Porsche 924 would intertmittently shut down.
Only using my Fluke DMM, and Tektronix 2465 scope, I isolated the problem down to the DME (Porsche term for ECM). Instead of replacing the DME, I went a step further, and found the component inside the DME that was causing the problem. It was a transistor in the 5V regulator (power for the digital section: uP, EPROM, ADC's, & RAM). This 5V regulator was made up of about a dozen discrete components (transistors, resistors, capacitors, and a zener diode voltage reference). Instead of replacing the bad transistor, I upgraded the circuit to a linear 5V regulator, newer technology that had much better temp & current, and regulation characteristics, and far better reliability.

Here is a picture of the modification I did:


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  #49  
Old 08-04-2008
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bobbie, your camera takes pretty pictures
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  #50  
Old 08-04-2008
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bobbie, your camera takes pretty pictures
Thank you for your kind words Mark!
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