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  #1  
Old 03-20-2005
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Milemarker..

A couple weeks ago, I posted that my Milemarker E9000 crapped out on me and that the thing is way out of warranty. Well, after speaking with Milemarker and sending them pictures of the broken parts, they decided to replace the broken parts for free. If this isn't great customer service, I don't know what is!! I finally received my parts, installed them, and put the winch on the truck only to find out that... IT WORKS!! Those guys are awesome.

If I ever need to buy another winch, it'll almost definitely be a Milemarker.
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2005
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Good deal! Now go wheeling with me and you're sure to get a chance to test it...
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2005
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I can't wait. What about next weekend??
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2005
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I just picked up a MM 9000HI :)
If anyone else wants one I found a place that does 675$ + free shipping + free
shackle...
or another place thats 660$ (for pricematching)

Now where is the best place to get syn rope.. I dont need the heat
shielded stuff.. the stock line is 3/8" cable... I could probably get away with
5/16 syn .. the stall is around 10500 on this winch...

On another note does anyone want to buy a never used 3/8" x 100ft cable?
And never used roller fairlead?


Rand

Last edited by Rand; 03-20-2005 at 08:54 AM.
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBarCYa
I can't wait. What about next weekend??
Love to -- but I'm hoping to be working on my new axle that weekend. That's Easter weekend, so there are some other things going on as well. Sorry!
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2005
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Rand,

Here's my suggestions on synthetic rope. Go with the Master-Pull. Their 5/16" rope is rated at 16,600lbs whereas most others are only 14,600lbs which is roughly equivalent to 3/8" cable. Don't be too concerned with the stall speed of the winch when buying rope because if you use a ****** block and double the capacity of the winch, you can easily overload the rope without stalling the winch. Also, electric winches build heat which is transferred to the drum. That's why you want the first layer of rope to be heat resistant. You also want something with UV protection because it'll be in the sun and will fatigue prematurely if not properly protected.

I actually ordered Amsteel before I noticed the difference in strength. For about the same price as 125' of Amsteel I was able to get 100' of Master Pull which is beter for me because the less rope that's on the drum, the closer you pull to the drum and the more capacity you have. The rated stall speed is on the first wrap and that will be cut in half by the 5th wrap. Less rope = more pulling power.
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2005
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Um Tom I got the Hydraulic MM... no heat...
Also I will have a winch cover on it when I'm not wheeling or using it so
UV resistant is a good feature.. but not huge..
I basically only need it because i hate pulling out 3/8" cable and respooling it.
I probably wont be using a ****** block unless its to change direction...
Also where is a good place to get a inexpensive ****** block.. tree protector etc. Dont need warn brand stuff *snicker*



Thanks for the imput :)
Rand
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2005
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So you did. Get what you like then. Were you able to get an adapter kit for the Ranger?? When I was looking at winches a couple years ago, they didn't have a kit available for the Ranger.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know you don't like spooling out cable if you don't yet have a winch?? Also, let's hope you're right about never needing the ****** block to increase your capacity... Especially if you buy inferior rope because once you break it, you're winchless and cannot simply use a set of U-bolts to repair synthetic rope like you can cable.

But what do I know, I've only been winching people out for the past 3 years.

Last edited by TBarCYa; 03-20-2005 at 08:54 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2005
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Well, never leave that cover off if UV resistance is not in your rope. Those synthetic winch cables (and all synthetic ropes) can have their structural integrity (read: long molecules become shorter ones, not good for plastics) break down from UV exposure.

I think UV resistance is important for ANY outdoor critical application. In the ham community we have been using synthetic cable for guy wires for years and found out, many of us, the hard way how fast UV can reduce the strength of poly ropes.
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  #10  
Old 03-20-2005
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Tom I think you read what I said the wrong way. I really appreciate your imput
and answering my emails. Its just that amsteel is the #1 name in winch rope
right now.. its 169$ for 13700# rope 100ft shipped. (also thats whats on ebay
even cheaper). Masterpull is 16500# and 239$ I could get 3/8 amsteel for
209$ shipped from okoffroad

Quote:
How does synthetic rope hold up to UV exposure?
Amsteel Blue has a proprietary urethane-based coating, factory-applied, to
help it resist UV radiation. Additionally, Amsteel Blue was not actually designed
for the 4WD industry; it was developed for offshore commercial fishing
purposes, where it would be exposed to nearly-constant sunlight. Because of
these design criteria, it resists UV exposure very well.
(also is impervious to damage from salt exposure)
Just found Rockstomper.com
3/8" x 100', 20,400lb winch rope, $187
5/16" x 100', 13,700lb winch rope, $139
(or you can get custom lenghts)
Prices dont include shipping you actually call them to order.
I am somewhat leary of this site as it appears very outdate..
I guess I'll see tomorrow
I have no doubt that masterpull is superior.. but at a price $$$
The rated specs on my winch show on the 5th winding it has 60% of the
rated linepull... If I end up getting 5/16 rope that would make only 4 windings
(i think) but even on the 5th winding I would have 5400#

.


The ranger adapter kit came out this year its not yet available at summit.
but other online places have it. I ordered the free mm video/brocure from them
and it listed it 35-5020-10
Summit is going to try to carry it now... but they wouldnt have it in time as
I plan on installing it next weekend.

Last edited by Rand; 03-20-2005 at 11:07 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2005
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Ah, so when you said "UV resistance is not an issue" you meant the cables you were looking at were ALL UV resistant? I misinterpreted that, sorry. I thought you meant it didn't NEED to be UV resistant.
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Old 03-20-2005
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I meant it wasnt that big a deal if I could get something ALOT cheaper...
but it appears what I was looking at is very uv resistant. If I had an electric winch I would probably get masterpull because of its 1st layer special line(heat
resistant) being that I didnt go electric.. I dont need that feature and the price
is right on this other line. Again. I thank you Tom for all your suggestions and
answers.

Oh and Tom I have used winches before. Alot of small handpowered 2000# boat winches. Some smaller electric 3k pull(i think). An Atv winch (who knows)
And a warn M12000(just once or maybe twice)
I HATE STEEL CABLE. I'm thinking I'm going to buy this stuff tomorrow then I can sell my never used roller fairlead and cable on ebay for a nice buck.
(3/8 cable is $$$)

Oh and my gf says shes looking forward to me having "step bars" shes on the
short side
As for a ****** block I will carry one. However with a hydraulic winch
there is no reason to ever use one unless you actually stall the winch.
As its already 6fpm I dont envision using one for 3fpm speed.
As it always turns the same speed no matter the load.. vs variable speed
on an electric(by load). I understand using one frequently on an electric winch. It doesnt reduce the speed as the winch moves faster under the
almost halved load.. and its alot easier on the winch and electrical system.
So being that I wheel at most 6-8 times a year. Not
counting my dad getting stuck on the family land (lol) I doubt I will ever get stuck enough to need a pulley block for that purpose.

Rand

Last edited by Rand; 03-20-2005 at 10:54 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2005
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****** blocks do not double the load on the line, it doubles the load on the ****** block itself. Going cheap on a ****** block is not the way to go.

The main point of a ****** block is not only to increase the pulling, but also to change the direction. Yeah, you might not ever nead the extra power a ****** blcok offers, but I guarantee there won't always be a tree directly in front of you when you do get stuck

Rand, for 35 more you could have gotten the 10500, why did you go for the 9000? Is it the 2 speed 9k?
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2005
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I got it for 660$ the 10500 was 712$. If i need more than that 9k.. I will use the
aformentioned ****** block :). Also the 9000hi (2sp) is faster than the 10500HI.
by almost 10% (possibly more since the ranger doesnt flow [email protected])
Oh and I did find the 9000HI for 675$ free shipping and free shackle. TOO late though, I bought at summit(paid tax ugh) and they pricematched winchesplus.com for 660$.

Duh I am tired carl I should have remembered that about ****** blocks..
a bit slow tonight :)
I'll probably get teh milemarker 24000# for 49$ unless I see something better
Best price on syn winch rope so far was www.rockstomper at 139$ for 100ft x5/16. I am going with 5/16 its almost as strong as 3/8" cable (stronger if you figure in industry safety standards on cable vs rope)

honorable mention http://www.landroverstuff.com/amsteel.htm
144$ for the same thing. 169$ for 125ft

Oh and Tom Unless you use power out alot on your winch you will never melt
or damage this cable. When you power out the brake causes all the heat... in
the drum.
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2005
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The ARB ****** block can be had for 58 bucks plus shipping. I've seen it on Ebay for 55 plus 13 shipping. I ahve one ARB right now, and will be getting a second when I get back. The ARB ****** is awesome. Greasable pulley, 3/16' steel plates.

I have found 100' 5/16" Amsteel for 125 bucks, forget where though. That's what's going on the Ranger for the old ball and chain. The Superline will go on the Rubicon b/c I'll be using the winch WAY more than her.

Good choice on the hydraulic, I think it's now the only way to go. Let me knwo how the install goes, I'll be doing mine in a few months. Did you get the cooler or a filter?

I think I'll go for the 10500 over the 9000. I could care less about speed and I found a place that sells the 10500 for 710 bucks. Price matching at Summit plus no tax is nice!

Here's a good read on ****** blocks...

think that the main reason for using a ****** block is to have more line off the drum.

According to Warn:

"Because pulling power decreases with the number of layers of wire rope on the winch drum, you can use a ****** block to double line out more wire rope.This decreases the number of layers of wire rope on the drum,and increases pulling power."

FYI-I have placed a Link to Warn's Winching Techniques Manual at the bottom of this post.


There is a lot to think about when using a ****** block, why it works, how to rig it and then all of the ratings and safety concerns that go along with running a winch too. I wonder about all of this stuff myself and have been doing some research on the web. Here are a few interesting items to chew on:
__________________________________________________ _________

1) ****** Block Basics

[email protected] (Reid Guthrie) wrote:



This may be a silly question, but what's a ****** block? I've seen several winching accessories, but don't recall one being a ****** block.

"****** block" is a specific type of block. A "block" is a "sheave", which is a wheel with a grooved edge to hold the rope or cable, combined with an axle or pin, side plates and a means of attaching it to something, typically a hook or shackle. Blocks are used in "block & tackle" combinations using multiple sheaves and two block assemblies, to increase mechanical advantage. A "****** block" is a specially-designed block which is used to "******" loads or anchors, and is designed so that the side plate can be opened or swung away for the easy insertion of a loop of rope or cable without having to thread a bitter end through the side plates, and can thus be inserted anywhere in the cable without having to remove the load first to change the direction of the cable pull. ****** blocks are one of the most mis-understood and misused items in the RV winching field, and can cause enormous harm and death if not properly rigged. Remember, if you overload a cable/****** block, and the block parts from the anchor, you have a 10 or more pound missile flying at great speed, which can kill instantly. The most important thing to remember about ****** block winching, as used in the typical 4wd sceneario, is that there is tremendous force applied to the block/anchor even when using a single-block system for a simple change of line direction.


> = vehicle
O = block
# = anchor
- |= line



1. >-----------O|
|
|
|
#
No mechanical advantage, 1 pound of pull required for each pound of lift/tension.


2. >----------------O|
>-----------------|

Mechanical advantage = 2/1 1 pound of pull results in 2 pounds of lift/tension.
Now for the IMPORTANT part; The amount of force applied to the *block* is dependant upon the angle between the incoming line (to winch) and the anchor line (to tree)! The total load on a block can be as much as *2 times* the load applied. The maximum force on the block comes when the angle of the two lines is 0 degrees, or are parallel to each other as shown in #2 above. The actual load varies with the angle between the legs.


Here is the table from the Crosby Group catalog:


Angle is the measured angle between the legs of the line as they pass over the block sheave. Factor is the multiplier for the applied line load to calculate the block load.

Angle Factor
0 2
10 1.99
20 1.97
30 1.93
40 1.87
50 1.81
60 1.73
70 1.64
80 1.53
90 1.41
100 1.29
110 1.15
120 1
130 0.84
135 0.76
140 0.68
150 0.52
160 0.35
170 0.17
180 0

In #1 above, the angle is 90 degrees, so the factor is 1.41. So a 10,000 pound load will place 14,100 pounds of force on the block/anchor.

And in #2 above, if the bitter end of the line is *not hooked to the winched vehicle* but is hooked to a tree or rock next to it, for each pound of winch force applied, the block will be under *twice* the load, while the line strain will be equal to the line pull. So if you apply a full 12,000 pounds of pull, you are putting 24,000 pounds of stress on the block/anchor. If, however, the bitter end *is* attached to the winched vehicle, the block becomes a "traveling block", even though it is attached to a solid object, because the vehicle itself is actually doing the "traveling", and the load on the *line* is halved, since you are using two lines to "support" the load. In this case, the mechanical advantage is 2/1, so you get 2 pounds pull for each pound of winch effort. Now, since you have two lines splitting the load, let's say it's 10,000 lbs. (you're *really* stuck), the line load is halved to 5000 lbs per line, but the *block* load is still 10,000 lbs because of the parallel line angle factor of 2. As you can see, while the load on the winch is cut in half, as is the line speed for winding, the load on the block is *not*, and is equal to the total line load.


This is why using a properly rated and carefully maintained block is of the utmost importance when winching. In most RV winching situations, "double-lining" is the best method to reduce stress and strain on the lines and winch motor, at the expense of speed, but may be the *worst* thing you can do from the safety or block standpoint, if your block is not adaquately rated or is in poor condition or if you don't know the strength of the anchor or the stall-pull of your winch. The block is being subjected to twice the force of any of the other components, and consequently the winch operator may never know he is exceeding the capacity of the block until it parts and takes his head off. This is especially true when using very powerful winches.

Imagine the stress on a block (and it's anchor as well) when the SUV owner with the Warn 12,000 lb winch double lines to pull his vehicle over an obstacle and sticks a wheel behind a rock, locking the vehicle in place. The winch is already rated for 6 tons single line pull, and adding a traveling block doubles the pulling force to 12 tons. If your ****** block is (as many are) underrated for the winch/line combination, and you have a 6 ton rated ****** block, or even a "really big 8 ton-rated" block, which is commonly sold with RV winches, you still have the potential of block failure because you are using a 6 - 8 ton block with a system capable of exerting 12 tons of force under circumstances where you might not recognize the actual pulling force you are exerting, because you are not really stressing out the winch.

A recipe for disaster.

This is *even more true* of hydraulic winches, which, unlike electric winches, usually pull until something breaks. With an electric winch, there is a built-in "safety" mechanisim which is that near the maximum-pull winch-stall load, the motor draws enormous amounts of amperage and heats up quickly. This means that the motor will usually stall due to lack of available amperage, increased electrical cable resistance due to heating, or motor overheat long before one can actually reach the rated pull, which is determined under lab conditions.

With a hydraulic winch though, the hydraulic motor runs happily along, getting slower and slower, and exerting more and more force, until something snaps, and will *rarely* stall before reaching breaking load. So, one must be *extra* careful when using hydraulic winches, since the winch appears to be quite happy, and is just getting slower and slower, and the typical RV person expects it to stall, which it won't.

Please keep in mind that we are always talking about the "safe working load limit" here, and while the ultimate failure safety limit is typically 5 times the working load limit for commercially-rated hoisting gear, it may be less, or non-existent in cheap, uncertified blocks, *particularly* "surplus" blocks available at low price.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!!! USE AN OFF-BRAND, UNCERTIFIED OR SURPLUS BLOCK WHEN WINCHING.

Good blocks are expensive for a reason. You spent big bucks on your rig, and big bucks on your winch, don't, for gosh sake, scrimp on your block! I bought two 15 ton McKissick Light Champion ****** blocks last week, and they cost about $125 each, and are worth every dime.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2005
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so Buck what you say in the text from the Crosby scale tells me that the first drawing actually gives a 1.41 advantage on the 90 degree angled pull
in the drawing you say no advantage?
since it increases the load factor on the block doesn't it also have a comparable increase in pulling strength at the bitter end?
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2005
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There is no mechanical advantage in that (and the first drawing is incorrect because the board took out leading spaces -- move the vertical section to the right) because both the pulley AND the anchoring point don't move. It's just redirected force, no multiplication.

If the vehicle and anchor point were stationary, AND you were trying to move whatever was attached to the block, THEN you would have mechanical advantage.

In case #1, all you are doing is pulling straight towards the pulley and the angle from the pulley to the anchor is irrelevant EXCEPT for the stress on the pulley.
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  #18  
Old 03-21-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3elz
There is no mechanical advantage in that (and the first drawing is incorrect because the board took out leading spaces -- move the vertical section to the right) because both the pulley AND the anchoring point don't move. It's just redirected force, no multiplication.

If the vehicle and anchor point were stationary, AND you were trying to move whatever was attached to the block, THEN you would have mechanical advantage.

In case #1, all you are doing is pulling straight towards the pulley and the angle from the pulley to the anchor is irrelevant EXCEPT for the stress on the pulley.
Isn't that what it states? For the first drawing, no gain....maybe I'm not reading it right?
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  #19  
Old 03-21-2005
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Yes, it does. I was talking to Neil who seems to think it does have advantage because he's reading a Crosby rigging chart that implies it does have advantage. I was explaining why it does NOT.
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Old 03-21-2005
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Ok.....Man did this thread go WAY off topic! So Tom, how's that Milemarker....*whistling quietly*........
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  #21  
Old 03-21-2005
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There is no mech. advantage but the force on the block is 1.41 x the actual line load.

Oh and that faq isnt written for MM hydraulic winches as the power steering pump has a bypass and for example my 9000 goes into bypass and stalls around 10000#... and it never slows down.

I **ALMOST** got the 710$ 10500HI.. decided on the 660$ 9000HI going to spend the other 50$ towards a cover and ****** block.

The reason I bought milemarker was in part of how they stand behind their
warrenty.. longer warrenty 2yr vs 1...

Rand
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  #22  
Old 03-21-2005
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OK - so then I would put the block on the stuck truck and use a stationary point for the bitter end and start pulling
then the force at the block is multiplied by the Crosby chart and you can effectively pull more than the rating of the winch
now I can see how you can easily cause the line to fail with improper winching techniques
a line rated only to the strength of the winch whilst using a block can easlily go beyond its rated capacity
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2005
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The MM is back in working order and doing good. In fact, I've taken it off and reinstalled it about 17 times today. Since I'm stalled on working on sliders until I can acquire paint and herculiner, I figured I'd start working on my new bumper/winch mount. It's on the truck with the winch and lights mounted but it really looks like ***. Too bad I'm too stubborn to put the stock bumper back on because it took so long for me to get it off. If I had my own tubing bender I could fix it, but since I guessed at some of the angles when I had the tubing bent, it's not what I wanted. I'm going to add some gussets where it bends around from the front to the side and hopefully that'll make it look somewhat decent. That, and I'll prime it on Thursday when I do the sliders and maybe it'll look decent. If not, I'll just run it into anyone who has anything bad to say about it.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2005
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That bumper looks MAH-VELOUS, Tom, just mah-velous...
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2005
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That's what I wanted to hear!! I'll post some pics tomorrow so everyone else can see how bad it looks. Really a shame because it's good tubing and a shame to waste it on such a poor looking bumper.
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