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General Technical & Electrical General technical and electrical discussion for the Ford Ranger that does not fit in any other sub-forum.

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  #26  
Old 11-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
horse power (which is 2 words by the way, not one) is a mathmatical formula.....they only TRUE dyno'd part of the formula is torque & engine speed...






BTW: nice findings Rich......keep us updated...
Nope, from one of Rich's posts:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2007
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btw, that http://www.clarktesting.com/ company.. well actually I have access (and experience in) something better. Fords quiet room at PDC. And every Ford engine plant in N.A.

You ever see a motor go from full load at 4500rpms and glowing red exhaust manifolds... -to- frost on the manifolds in 2 minutes? I have.

Rich
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2007
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2007
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^^LMFAO, I haven't seen that one in a while...
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2007
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bob ... you might think of it as a scam,,, but can you do a test for me... run a mile breathing only with a straw in your mouth...sucks.. pretty much impossible ... ok.. now run the same mile .. but breathing out of your mouth or nose.. doesn't matter,, it is much easier....
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  #31  
Old 11-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
Some guys watch the boob-tube. Some play git-tar. Some argue on the internet.. but the good guys are in the garage.
I play guitar AND throw wrenches. Bloke.
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  #32  
Old 11-27-2007
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I'm guilty of three myself.
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dngerzone
bob ... you might think of it as a scam,,, but can you do a test for me... run a mile breathing only with a straw in your mouth...sucks.. pretty much impossible ... ok.. now run the same mile .. but breathing out of your mouth or nose.. doesn't matter,, it is much easier....
From your analogy, I can tell you aren't a very scientific, or mechanically inclined person! To help you out a little, measure the diameter of a straw,
vs the diameter of your trachea. There is no way that a straw will flow the airflow you are capable of pulling!! The OEM intake & airbox, however, i
are designed to flow way more air than a N.A. engine will pull. I've used this expression before, you can replace the OEM intake with a sewer pipe, and it won't flow any more air than the OEM intake! The bad news, the air velocity in the sewer pipe will be way lower than the OEM intake, drastically affecting the measurement accuracy of the MAF sensor.......Can you understand this concept?
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
You know.. a CAI kit is really a waste of time in the grand scheme of things. I just like the science behind it all. To me working, testing, and building stuff like this is just plain fun. Some guys watch the boob-tube. Some play git-tar. Some argue on the internet.. but the good guys are in the garage.
Rich
I agree it's more fun to make it rather than open a box.
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
The OEM intake & airbox, however, i
are designed to flow way more air than a N.A. engine will pull.
That's not true Bob. And it's only part of the picture too.

What were talking about here is efficiency. Efficiency is more than just a pipe diameter (or crossectional area). Laminar flow is very important as is "delta P". (change in pressure accross a given thing)

And for what it might be worth. I've designed one "zip tube" and two intake manifolds for Ford. I'm not an expert in this.. but I did learn quite a bit from the excercise and full time induction engineers. Laminar flow and equal length / volume runners is what's most important for making flat TQ curves. A conical filter feeding a round pipe is as good as it gets when it come to a filtered design. Otherwise a "old school" open velocity stock is best for a NA motor.

The rectangular panel filters commonly found on modern FI cars have more to do with induction noise suppression & mfg cost than they do with performance. A conical filter takes up much more engine room packaging space, does'nt quell noise, and cost 3-4 times as much to manufacture as does a flat panel type.

Rich
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  #36  
Old 11-27-2007
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marry me rich !

we could make wonderfull babys lol
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  #37  
Old 11-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
That's not true Bob. And it's only part of the picture too.

What were talking about here is efficiency. Efficiency is more than just a pipe diameter (or crossectional area). Laminar flow is very important as is "delta P". (change in pressure accross a given thing)

And for what it might be worth. I've designed one "zip tube" and two intake manifolds for Ford. I'm not an expert in this.. but I did learn quite a bit from the excercise and full time induction engineers. Laminar flow and equal length / volume runners is what's most important for making flat TQ curves. A conical filter feeding a round pipe is as good as it gets when it come to a filtered design. Otherwise a "old school" open velocity stock is best for a NA motor.

The rectangular panel filters commonly found on modern FI cars have more to do with induction noise suppression & mfg cost than they do with performance. A conical filter takes up much more engine room packaging space, does'nt quell noise, and cost 3-4 times as much to manufacture as does a flat panel type.

Rich
Rich, the discussion is about the intake in front of the throttle plate, NOT the upper and lower intake runners. I hate to disagree with you, but you are wrong! What causes noise Rich? Air turbulence!!

And Rich, all of the Italian exotics, where cost is no object, and performance is the top priority, use flat panel PAPER air filters! With a conical filter, the air enters in a circular fashion, collides, and is turned into the intake tube. With a flat panel, the air enters the filter in one plane, and there are no collisions.
The Europeans (Sweden, Germany, Italy, France), and even the Japanese were using flat panel PAPER air filters, way before the US manufacturers were.
You brought up laminar air flow. Explain to me how you can get laminar air flow with a conical filter? Not possible, but laminar air flow is possible with a flat panel filter! Rich, you claim to be an engineer, where did you get your degree? You must have missed the fluid dynamics course!

Here is a V-12 Ferrari, which uses 2 flat panel air boxes, one on each side of the engine:


Last edited by Takeda; 11-28-2007 at 06:22 AM.
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  #38  
Old 11-28-2007
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This is fun watching Takeda get
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  #39  
Old 11-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
Rich, you claim to be an engineer, where did you get your degree? You must have missed the fluid dynamics course!

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  #40  
Old 11-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
Rich, the discussion is about the intake in front of the throttle plate, NOT the upper and lower intake runners. I hate to disagree with you, but you are wrong! What causes noise Rich? Air turbulence!!
No Bob. Air turblance is not the cause. It's shock waves being propigated back through the entire induction system. And it's source of origin is the intake valve stopping and starting the air velocity. This is why the induction noise gets louder and louder the more the throttle is opened. (carbs included) And worth noting also, the shorter the induction system.. the louder this noise will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
And Rich, all of the Italian exotics, where cost is no object, and performance is the top priority, use flat panel PAPER air filters!
Thats a nice thought.. but incorrect again thar Bob. Cost of the exotics are indeed of a priority! Low volume and high margin is the name of thier game.
I'd suspect they use the flat panel design for both cost and packaging requirements. Since they tend to use ***two*** filters it becomes even more important to use existing and low cost parts!! Truth is though.. neither of us were there when they designed it. So.. that subject is about like two fleas sitting on the back of a dog and argueing who owns the dog. Pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
With a conical filter, the air enters in a circular fashion, collides, and is turned into the intake tube. With a flat panel, the air enters the filter in one plane, and there are no collisions.
Bob Bob Bob... You've now clearly shown the RF guys that you don't understand laminar flow. Firstly have you ever heard of Newtons laws of motion? Secondly, here is a cut and paste for you about laminar flow:
Laminar flow, sometimes known as streamline flow, occurs when a fluid flows in parallel layers, with no disruption between the layers. In fluid dynamics, laminar flow is a flow regime characterized by high momentum diffusion, low momentum convection, pressure and velocity independent from time. It is the opposite of turbulent flow. In nonscientific terms laminar flow is "smooth," while turbulent flow is "rough."

Laminar flow is highly dependant on pressures and velocity. A conical shape on the end of a round tube evens out both. This is the whole point of the K&N kits. As well as the old school "velocity stacks" you see on old race motors.

Flat panel filters and the shape change that the air goes through is not "bad" IMO. But it's not optimal either. Air velocity will not be even across the entire surface of a typical panel filter. One where the zip tube is on one side and 90degrees to the filter. A conical will be much more equally distributed. WHich btw.. means the dirt will have a tendancy to be more spread out across the surface. Anyone who's ever cleaned a dirty K&N conical and a K&N flat filter can attest to this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
The Europeans (Sweden, Germany, Italy, France), and even the Japanese were using flat panel PAPER air filters, way before the US manufacturers were.
Exactly! This is why they kicked the US automakers butts in the 70s and 80s. They focused on cutting costs in all areas of business. (btw, I've worked directly for Yamaha & Nissan. I'm very familiar with how they conduct business. Some of it's good. Some is not)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda
You brought up laminar air flow. Explain to me how you can get laminar air flow with a conical filter? Not possible, but laminar air flow is possible with a flat panel filter! Rich, you claim to be an engineer, where did you get your degree? You must have missed the fluid dynamics course!
Answered above. As far as fluid dynamics goes... I was a water pump engineer for 6 years. I do believe I'm more than qualified on that thar subject.

Bob.. honestly. If I did'nt know better I'd think your just toying with us. These are all basic scientific principals.

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 11-28-2007 at 11:07 AM.
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  #41  
Old 11-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
Answered above. As far as fluid dynamics goes... I was a water pump engineer for 6 years. I do believe I'm more than qualified on that thar subject.

Bob.. honestly. If I did'nt know better I'd think your just toying with us. These are all basic scientific principals.

Rich
Rich, your answer about the water pump proves you have never taken fluid dynamics!!! For your information, fluid dynamics deals with gases, and liquids.

You completely ignored the question on where you got your degree!!!!

I'm done!!
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2007
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thank god..... so anyways ... any updates on your air shield rich.....
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2007
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Bob and I PM'ed. I hope were good w/each other? Last thing I want to do is offend people. And btw to all... yes I've takes classes on the Subject. (Dr Korst at UofIll)


Hard info: I data logged this morning actually! It was 14F at the house today when I left for work.

Summary: The air box is completely taped off except for the headlight opening. When moving I'm dead on ambient no matter the speed. When I come to a stop it'll creep up about 2deg every 15-20 seconds. Far FAR slower than the stock K&N setup (which is obvious). IN all fairness though. I did those K&N temp measurements on a 86F day. Just no way to duplicate that until next summer.

I think this weekend I'll add the 3" ram air tube and see what happens to the temp creep. Next up will be a way to keep debris from getting into the filter box. I've got a idea..

Rich
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
Bob and I PM'ed. I hope were good w/each other? Last thing I want to do is offend people. And btw to all... yes I've takes classes on the Subject. (Dr Korst at UofIll)
You told him the facts he was wanting and he couldn't take it. You proved him wrong. Get used to Bob it's the same story over and over. I didn't see any offence in anything you said.
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2007
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On the drive home tonight I took the exact same route with very similar traffic as was data logged on this page: LOOK AT THE DATA LOGS
Now of coarse the temps were much different. 86F then vs 36F tonight. But.. the temps would barely creep up as I crawled along. Highest I saw was an increase of 18F above ambient. And that was at the end of that 7 mile stop & go stretch.
E-fan kicking on had ZERO effect on the temps. Sitting still, slightly moving, or going down the hwy.. no effects at all.
Another little tid-bit.. it does'nt cool off nearly as quick as does the open filter. I'm pretty sure that the temp rise is coming from the radiator and migrating over behind the headlight opening. That area is not difectly flooded with fresh air as soon as you move and takes a good 10mph to start to cool off.

No matter.. this setup is CLEARLY much better than the semi-blocked off K&N FIPK kit. This weekend I'll add a 3" ram air pipe and re-do these data logs.

Regards, Rich
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  #46  
Old 12-25-2007
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Update Dec 25th 2007:

Just thought I'd give a little update. Things are getting more interesting with the prototype box I made. A "given" that I was assuming is that the trucks radiator support would act as the front of the box. Well... yesterday was cold (25F) and was playing with the new scanguage. I found out that idling in the drive the temps will just creep up and up. Higher than did the original box ever did. Hum..?
Well I figured it out! The rad support gets hotter and hotter. That heat, heats up the non moving air in the box and translates into the slow moving air charge as well. It took a good 20-25 minutes of idle time w/o moving to reach 125F. I'm sure in summer heat it would be far worse.

Since I live in the north and very seldom sit still I'll let it go as is. But anyone in hotter regions ought to be aware that a good source of heat when sitting still is that rad support!

btw, I've now got a ram-air ductwork scooping air from the pass side of the grill. As soon as the truck moves the temps drop very quickly. But that rad support is a source of constant heat.. arg..

Rich
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  #47  
Old 12-25-2007
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I had a scangauage hooked up yesterday. On a stock 08 3.0 the intake air was 47 degrees. At idle (normal stop lights) it would jump up 20 degrees.
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  #48  
Old 12-25-2007
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Yeah I've data logged the stock one as well. I had thought the heat was just mirgating air. But it's partly caused by the rad support itself.

Rich
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  #49  
Old 01-01-2008
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Update 01Jan08

Today I got around to making the "cold air induction" truely a cold air only kit. Its hard to tell in the pictures.. but I've used clear acrylic sheeting and now have the passenger side of the grill area doing nothing but pushing air into the headlight/airbox area. The bottom of that HL/AIR area is still open which hopefully will allow rain, snow, and debris to fall.

So far water and snow intrusion has been minimal. The headlight opening in the rad support has an effect of keeping most out. And what little does get by seems to only be in the bottom of the box.
In one heavy downpour I did see some droplets on the top of the lid (inside of box) So that tells me that a outerwears prefilter is a must have for engine longevity.

Later in the week I'll do a good datalog and report
UPDATED WEB PAGE

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 01-01-2008 at 05:24 PM.
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  #50  
Old 01-07-2008
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Update 7Jan08:
Snow and water intrusion has been very minimal. It's been even less so than w/o the ram air! Guess that means sealing off from the main grill area is actually helping.
INterestingly though... temps when I come to a dead stop rise just as quickly as they did before. When I start moving they do drop quicker though. So.. the ram air is indeed functioning like it's supposed to.

Fortunately it's been very very cold and I've been able to easily feel the parts to see where the heat is. (infared temp gun & hand touching) At this point the heat seems to be mostly contained in the lid and in the K&N pipe/elbo. Can't do much about those areas w/o adding insulation.

I think about the only thing left to try is to make it not touch the rad support. A bit of heat seems to be transfered from the two touching.

Rich
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