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  #51  
Old 01-17-2016
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can you manually engage the starter? sounds like the pcm is lit, roll it over and if it runs its probably a secondary system through the key power controls. i assume it is the keyless push button system you are using. i have yet to learn about this system, but i have gone a ways into this the last few weeks. a few places including livernois, which is turning out to be a bit of a bummer....wont even work with this at all outside of their oem applications.

the prices for one of these 3.5 engines out of a flex is ridiculously cheap here locally. seems like when people buy one of those flex things they cant wait to go play demolition derby those critters litter the yards around here like a herd of wounded rabbits at the moment... i looked at some rwd and fwd engines on pallets being shipped and was using a wire to check hole spacing. the oil pan holes seemed the only difference on the units i looked at that were on pallets..that and one dowel that may have simply been missing from teardown...it was cold as fawk out and i was on a different mission, so i was unprepared to get any good details.

one thing for sure, they are eliminating the pats with the regular 3.7 pcm,s and making some serious horsepower with addition of turbos etc...well in the mustang world anyway.

if i understand livernois correctly those processors are not the same as the units with the ecoboost. there were hardware differences there, so that sux.


i am to the point of just popping a few hundred bux to helm and get some printed diagrams and manuals for one of these systems, the front drive engines are about half the price so i am tempted to go that way, but my applications are almost certain to be rwd and most likely 4wd.

and of course that directs money the other way and raises prices of admission substantially.

you would think the buss systems would make it easier for computer guys to work around and pare the systems down.. sometimes....i wish i was a computer guy



so crank it over manually and see if it goes.
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2016
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maybe i should say that different.


if the pats was defeated in a bridging manner, then you need to manually start the starter because the previous signalling scenario is not there. i know some of the pats systems are staged, though i have no idea of exactly what it is your working with.
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2016
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Ecostang,

I have not yet read your thread on Mustang site, but I sure want to! Question: How was the PATS system turned off with HP tuner software? With a laptop use HP Tuner software, or did you send your PCM to HP turner to have them do it?

Walt
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  #54  
Old 01-17-2016
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Originally Posted by bobbywalter View Post
can you manually engage the starter? sounds like the pcm is lit, roll it over and if it runs its probably a secondary system through the key power controls. i assume it is the keyless push button system you are using. i have yet to learn about this system, but i have gone a ways into this the last few weeks. a few places including livernois, which is turning out to be a bit of a bummer....wont even work with this at all outside of their oem applications.

the prices for one of these 3.5 engines out of a flex is ridiculously cheap here locally. seems like when people buy one of those flex things they cant wait to go play demolition derby those critters litter the yards around here like a herd of wounded rabbits at the moment... i looked at some rwd and fwd engines on pallets being shipped and was using a wire to check hole spacing. the oil pan holes seemed the only difference on the units i looked at that were on pallets..that and one dowel that may have simply been missing from teardown...it was cold as fawk out and i was on a different mission, so i was unprepared to get any good details.

one thing for sure, they are eliminating the pats with the regular 3.7 pcm,s and making some serious horsepower with addition of turbos etc...well in the mustang world anyway.

if i understand livernois correctly those processors are not the same as the units with the ecoboost. there were hardware differences there, so that sux.


i am to the point of just popping a few hundred bux to helm and get some printed diagrams and manuals for one of these systems, the front drive engines are about half the price so i am tempted to go that way, but my applications are almost certain to be rwd and most likely 4wd.

and of course that directs money the other way and raises prices of admission substantially.

you would think the buss systems would make it easier for computer guys to work around and pare the systems down.. sometimes....i wish i was a computer guy



so crank it over manually and see if it goes.
We thought about doing that with the started but the other issue is that the fuel pumps aren't getting power either, it wouldn't run even if we could get it to crank over.

I bought the f150 motor instead of the transverse ecoboost, unless you go fwd, awd there aren't any transmissions that bolt up to it. With the f150 you can bolt up the auto from the truck, or the auto from the 3.7 mustang, or the MT-82 6 speed manual from the 3.7.
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  #55  
Old 01-17-2016
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Originally Posted by bobbywalter View Post
maybe i should say that different.


if the pats was defeated in a bridging manner, then you need to manually start the starter because the previous signalling scenario is not there. i know some of the pats systems are staged, though i have no idea of exactly what it is your working with.
I think there's more to it than pats, there's also anti theft and collision safety devices that can control ignition and fuel. They are digging deep in the PCM right now to see what thy can find. If all else fails I'll go buy the ecoboost control pack.
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  #56  
Old 01-17-2016
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Originally Posted by walt460 View Post
Ecostang,

I have not yet read your thread on Mustang site, but I sure want to! Question: How was the PATS system turned off with HP tuner software? With a laptop use HP Tuner software, or did you send your PCM to HP turner to have them do it?

Walt
It's not too bad, 40 pages or so. It's been a 9 month process so far and I've had a blast building it. I found a lightly wrecked 2010 mustang with only 9k original miles to use for the project, the engine I found has 19k miles out if a 2012 f150.

I sent the PCM to hptuners to start with, they turned off pats and the automatic transmission. He suggested I buy a MPVI so that he could continue to work on it remotely, which I did. He works on it when he can, I'm sure he will discover soon whatever it is keeping us from starting the car.
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  #57  
Old 01-17-2016
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How did you do the "PCM wake-up" wire? The F150 BCM uses CAN network for system confirmation. does your 2010 Mustang PCM also have a CAN connection, and if so, is it connected to the CAN network along with the cluster and the steering rack and the PCM?

I have done several harnesses for F150 3.5L EB swaps but always with the 6R80, never done one for a manual trans, but I know that the 6R80 wiring has a shifter switch that must be connected (to confirm shifter is in park) or the engine will not crank. Did you pin-out the PCM to confirm you have all the wires connected?

There are a lot of potential sources for you no-start problem, but if the BCM is not switching the fuel pump relay or the starter relay, then the problem could well be in the wiring to the BCM from the PCM and/or the cars wiring from the auto shifter (which you removed).

I am in southern Nevada, near Vegas. Email me, [email protected] so we can exchange phone number and talk.

Walt
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  #58  
Old 01-17-2016
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Originally Posted by walt460 View Post
How did you do the "PCM wake-up" wire? The F150 BCM uses CAN network for system confirmation. does your 2010 Mustang PCM also have a CAN connection, and if so, is it connected to the CAN network along with the cluster and the steering rack and the PCM?

I have done several harnesses for F150 3.5L EB swaps but always with the 6R80, never done one for a manual trans, but I know that the 6R80 wiring has a shifter switch that must be connected (to confirm shifter is in park) or the engine will not crank. Did you pin-out the PCM to confirm you have all the wires connected?

There are a lot of potential sources for you no-start problem, but if the BCM is not switching the fuel pump relay or the starter relay, then the problem could well be in the wiring to the BCM from the PCM and/or the cars wiring from the auto shifter (which you removed).

I am in southern Nevada, near Vegas. Email me, [email protected] so we can exchange phone number and talk.

Walt
The mustang has the PCM wake-up wire just like the F150 and yes everything speaks over canbus just like the f150. Supposedly the switch is tuned off for the automatic transmission at this point. Yes we have checked the wires a few times to comfrim we are connected, of course something can always be overlooked.

I will send you an email, thank you so much for offering help, I really appreciate it. A friend is helping me and he understands the wiring, I'm more of a mechanical guy. I'll try to find a time we can all 3 get on the phone, he's much easier to explain things to lol. Thanks again for offering the help us.
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  #59  
Old 01-17-2016
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Walt did you use the cluster from the f150 in the swaps you did? The guy helping me discovered that the park signal is sent to the cluster where he suspects is then converted to a CAN signal and sent to PCM. Since the mustang cluster doesn't have this function I bet this is our problem. Hptuners should be able to turn this off in the PCM since of course the control pack doesn't have this function. If not we will use my DD F150 ecoboost to see what signal it's sending to the cluster. We can use a device called a black box to replicate this signal on my mustang to trick the PCM.
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  #60  
Old 01-17-2016
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You do not need the cluster, system works fine without it. However, you do need to loop the CAN bus.
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  #61  
Old 01-17-2016
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I need to check, but I recall that the park/neutral switch goes to the PCM as does the Up/dn switch from the shifter. Not sure what HP removed when they did the auto trans software delete but I would think your clutch depressed switch should be wired to the same two wires used for the park/neutral.
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  #62  
Old 01-18-2016
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Also, do you have a ground strap from the engine block to the chassis?
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  #63  
Old 01-18-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt460 View Post
Also, do you have a ground strap from the engine block to the chassis?
Yes I did, there is a ground strap on the back of the engine and 2 groups of grounds on the wire handiness connected to th body near the front of the engine.
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  #64  
Old 01-18-2016
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Originally Posted by walt460 View Post
I need to check, but I recall that the park/neutral switch goes to the PCM as does the Up/dn switch from the shifter. Not sure what HP removed when they did the auto trans software delete but I would think your clutch depressed switch should be wired to the same two wires used for the park/neutral.
Yes I agree about the clutch switch being wired to the park/neutral. Here's a pic of the diagram showing the park signal route. I'll post one more
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  #65  
Old 01-18-2016
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Second diagram
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  #66  
Old 01-18-2016
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OK, let's back up a little.

On the F150 3.5L EB the stater relay is controlled by the PCM. PCM C1551B pin 62 goes to the starter relay pin 1 and PCM C1551B pin 43 goes to starter relay pin 2. Since you used F150 wiring and the F150 big fuse box (battery junction box) all this wiring should be 100% factory, and if the starter is not being energized, it means the PCM is not happy with conditions being met to allow starting.

Have you verified that when you hit the start button, you get 12V to pin 47 of the PCM C1551B? This power should come from the BCM through the ignition switch "start" position.

If you are getting this 12V signal to the PCM but it does not crank, one of three "conditions" are not being met in the F150 PCM. 1) Transmission is not in part, 2) brake pedal is not depressed or 3)battery voltage is below 10 volts. With the PATS defeated, it should just be these 3 conditions. Note that on a normal F150 sytem, if PATS key code is not correct, but the other 3 conditions are being met, the engine will crank but not start. You are not getting crank conditions being met somehow or the PCM or PCM program is not correct.

The fuel pump relay not being turned on is a concern as well. That relay is controlled by the BCM in the F150. I am not familiar with the 2010 Mustang BCM. Where did you connect the Battery Current sensor wires?

I can talk via phone anytime, so let me know when you are ready, I sent you my cell number.

Walt
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  #67  
Old 01-18-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walt460 View Post
OK, let's back up a little.

On the F150 3.5L EB the stater relay is controlled by the PCM. PCM C1551B pin 62 goes to the starter relay pin 1 and PCM C1551B pin 43 goes to starter relay pin 2. Since you used F150 wiring and the F150 big fuse box (battery junction box) all this wiring should be 100% factory, and if the starter is not being energized, it means the PCM is not happy with conditions being met to allow starting.

Have you verified that when you hit the start button, you get 12V to pin 47 of the PCM C1551B? This power should come from the BCM through the ignition switch "start" position.

If you are getting this 12V signal to the PCM but it does not crank, one of three "conditions" are not being met in the F150 PCM. 1) Transmission is not in part, 2) brake pedal is not depressed or 3)battery voltage is below 10 volts. With the PATS defeated, it should just be these 3 conditions. Note that on a normal F150 sytem, if PATS key code is not correct, but the other 3 conditions are being met, the engine will crank but not start. You are not getting crank conditions being met somehow or the PCM or PCM program is not correct.

The fuel pump relay not being turned on is a concern as well. That relay is controlled by the BCM in the F150. I am not familiar with the 2010 Mustang BCM. Where did you connect the Battery Current sensor wires?

I can talk via phone anytime, so let me know when you are ready, I sent you my cell number.

Walt
Walt it was great speaking with you and I think your advice is dead on. The brake pedal is defintely an issue, the brakes lights aren't working and it was a low concern for us but it's been part of the problem.

We also remembered there was some wiring that needed to be done for the fuel pumps to work, that should fix the fuel pump problem. The BCM on the mustang doesn't send the signal, it comes from the SJB. That's the issue, with some rewiring that should be ok.

Battery current sensor wires, I'm glad you asked. Since I relocated the battery to the trunk I grounded the original negative battery cable to the body under the hood, then I grounded the negative battery post to the body in the trunk. I ran the positive wire from the battery to the positive battery cables that originally attached to the battery under the hood. Do I need to also run the negative wire the same way or does hooking each up to the body work? Lexiion read recently that if doing a battery relocate that both wires need to be run?

Last edited by Ecostang; 01-18-2016 at 04:14 PM.
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  #68  
Old 01-18-2016
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yeah, always best to run a ground cable as well when relocating the battery to the trunk, but you can just use a battery jumper cable as quick fix to see if that makes any difference.
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  #69  
Old 01-18-2016
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Are you using the ecoboost's alternator? If so you need to run the current sensor wires. Battery current sensor 3 wires run to BCM and alternator current sensor wires go to PCM. Not sure if your 2010 Mustang had this type of alternator control system or not.
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  #70  
Old 01-18-2016
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We got it running tonight! Had to bridge the starter relay but it worked, the car idled and revved up for 20 min or so before we turned it off. What a huge relief.

The alternator seemed to be working, we showed 14.2 Volts.
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  #71  
Old 01-18-2016
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Clip of us starting it for the first time
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File Type: mov trim.78E1261D-2EC0-4EAF-8C09-A60D28021326.MOV (3.96 MB, 36 views)
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  #72  
Old 01-19-2016
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Congrats! Can't wait to see it on the road!

As far as alternator goes, you must have it wired to PCM but if not wired to BCM as done in the F150, it will not proactively respond to load changes. I think Ford started doing this when EPAS introduced on F150, so your 2010 Mustang BCM may not have this feature. Some road driving will reveal if this is really a problem or not.

Also can't wait to see how it drives/performs with the (auto deleted) control strategy.

Walt
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  #73  
Old 01-19-2016
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so, you want the factory controller because you have the epas? because i imagine with a tuner/tune and the ridiculous amount of work for these first pats delete your pushing 2k or beyond...


or were you unable to actually take delivery of the ford setup slated for the manual application.?.? as in it is still unobtainable bullshit....

the guys here say they have shipped several so far. just not seeing them here in the dead of winter. nothing prowling around maxis yet...i imagine when the weather gets a bit agreeable there will be many...

when do you think you will be back walt? any plans to be in detroit in the near term?

looking at the diagrams here for the shifter i see some ease up with things. i am such a cave pig.. and its worse now with flexrey or whatever the hell some of these tie ins are being used now....need to learn some more about the systems.

so i assume the control pack is a no go? or were you married to this deal and said fawk it... they claim to have shipped since x mas....i dont have 2 k to buy one yet to see. donny is gtting divorced....good for me because he quit bugging me...but now i am curious and laid off and bored...


Ford Racing Performance Parts - Mobile

Ford Performance Racing Parts M-6017-35CNTRL - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing


anyway, there are several stand alone controllers supposedly releasing for the 6r80, so i hope the 5r110 will be brought into that fold.

still, a guy would be looking at 3500 bux for a 3.5 pak and a stand alone 6r80 controller setup.....

thats more then i can buy the engine and trans for... so i really hope you can work out using the 150 stuff...

i just hope its not too late to buy engines once the wiring settle out.
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  #74  
Old 01-19-2016
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when do you think you will be back walt? any plans to be in detroit in the near term?

Bobbywalter, no plans anytime soon. I Like southern Nevada, no snow and winter is really just some cold mornings!

When considering a 3.5L, 3.7L, or 3.5 EB engine for a Ranger project, make sure you use an engine from a Mustang or a F150. All the Flex, Explorer, Escape etc. FWD applications have engines with a completely different rear-face-of-block, RFOB, so they will not bolt up to the RWD 6R80 or Mustang manual transmissions.
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  #75  
Old 01-20-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbywalter View Post
so, you want the factory controller because you have the epas? because i imagine with a tuner/tune and the ridiculous amount of work for these first pats delete your pushing 2k or beyond...


or were you unable to actually take delivery of the ford setup slated for the manual application.?.? as in it is still unobtainable bullshit....

the guys here say they have shipped several so far. just not seeing them here in the dead of winter. nothing prowling around maxis yet...i imagine when the weather gets a bit agreeable there will be many...

when do you think you will be back walt? any plans to be in detroit in the near term?

looking at the diagrams here for the shifter i see some ease up with things. i am such a cave pig.. and its worse now with flexrey or whatever the hell some of these tie ins are being used now....need to learn some more about the systems.

so i assume the control pack is a no go? or were you married to this deal and said fawk it... they claim to have shipped since x mas....i dont have 2 k to buy one yet to see. donny is gtting divorced....good for me because he quit bugging me...but now i am curious and laid off and bored...


Ford Racing Performance Parts - Mobile

Ford Performance Racing Parts M-6017-35CNTRL - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing


anyway, there are several stand alone controllers supposedly releasing for the 6r80, so i hope the 5r110 will be brought into that fold.

still, a guy would be looking at 3500 bux for a 3.5 pak and a stand alone 6r80 controller setup.....

thats more then i can buy the engine and trans for... so i really hope you can work out using the 150 stuff...

i just hope its not too late to buy engines once the wiring settle out.

I had originally planned to use the control pack, but ford racing really pissed me off with missing deadline after deadline after deadline. I got so frustrated I said screw it lets try the f150 PCM, if it doesn't work out I'll go purchase the control pack.

The straw that broke the camels back is the 3rd or 4th time the customer service rep gave me a new release date months apart. I told them they should give me a discount for the delays and they weren't interested, in fact they never responded to that request. This would have been a good move for them especially with the attention my car is getting on the mustang source, 1-2k views a day. The fact that we went around the control pack will push people to buy the f150 PCM and have hptuners reprogram it.....it will be much cheaper. I won't say what hptuners is charging me but I think being the guniea pig has afforded me some very special pricing. I'm very happy with hptuners at this point, they appreciate the project and have been very cool to work with!

http://themustangsource.com/forums/f...e-swap-538017/

Last edited by Ecostang; 01-20-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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