Changing out stock injectors in a '95 2.3 for 19#'ers
 

I've been reading through about 3 different forums on improvements to the 2.3 for both power and fuel efficiency and from what I'm reading swapping out the injectors does a great amount (relatively speaking) for both.

My question is can anyone point me to the exact injectors that would work or are they all universal from Ford for that generation of vehicles? Also, is there a walkthrough with advice on choosing injectors?

From what I've been told the injectors from a 4.6 or 5.0 of that same generation will fit with no issues, but I've seen two different types of injectors. I'm guessing the link below is my type?

19 LB 19LB DESIGN II FUEL INJECTORS FORD MUSTANG : eBay Motors (item 220582167637 end time Apr-10-10 20:33:09 PDT)

Yeah those will be fine. Just make sure they are EV1 style plugs not EV6. The link you posted is for 8 though, you could probably have better luck at a JY or something. You might even be able to find a set of 4 on eBay. 19# injectors are everywhere.

I don't quite understand how adding bigger injectors will help fuel efficiency though?

I dont understand either, but the 3-4 people I read about doing it claimed such plus added power. My only guess would be that the older/smaller injectors weren't as efficient maybe. Who knows, but the added power is a no brainer for me.

Forgive my ignorance but how would I tell what type (EV1 or EV6) they are? Is there a visual indicator?

Also, what is JY and I thought the 2.3L needed 8 injectors since it requires 8 spark plugs?

EV1 is the older style injector and EV6 is the newer. The ones you posted are EV1 so you are good there. By JY I meant junkyard. Nope, only 4 injectors and if I remember right the stock ones are 15#ers.

As far as efficiency goes though, I'm not saying it isn't true I just don't get it. When I stuck 42# injectors in my little monster with a stock tune it was just dumping fuel to it. It smoked like a diesel and barely ran. My situation was a little different though 42#ers are way to big for a stock tune. haha

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...injector03.gif

Whoa thanks for the pic. Ya someone in another forum had mistakenly directed me to EV6 style plugs.

And ya I read your sig and was like 42#??? no way. =)

Thanks again for the help

Haha yeah well 42# injectors are a nice match to the 15-20 psi of boost I'm throwing at it. =]

Not a problem.

I'm seeing a few guys on ebay selling older ev1's in sets of 8 for ridiculously low prices. Granted they are used and claiming to be in good working order....would it be worth it buying them for $25-40 and cleaning them up? I found one site selling a 8 injector kit with all the replacement o=rings and filters etc for $20

One other thing I forgot to ask: Do I need to have the EEC reprogramed or anything? From what I've read, its a matter of simply unplugging your truck battery for more than 5 min and the EEC will 'relearn' everything including the changes.

As for buying cheap injectors and cleaning them go for it. Its easy, I just finished a set of 24 pounders. Ultrasonic cleaners are the best for cleaning them out, besides that cycle the injectors after soaking them and blow them out with an air compressor.

As for upgrading to a 19 pound injector I see no benefit. The only slight plus I could see is better fuel atomization with a four nozzle injector, over the single needle style. The problem is that putting 19's on a PCM that thinks its running 15's is that your not going to get the proper fuel mixture, and if anything performance and mileage should suffer. You could look into getting the PCM reprogrammed in order to compensate for the larger injectors but I still see no benefit.

Also the main reason to increase the size of an injector is when your not getting enough fuel in higher RPMS. For instance elementenjoi runs 42 pound injectors because he has a boosted application, and his stock injectors would not be able to supply enough fuel. Your stock 2.3 isn't going to be limiting the stock injectors.

^ exactly. I have heard though that the PCM will "learn" an injector one size bigger or something. It supposedly just runs rough for a while and then gets better. But like Rob said, unless you can supply the fuel with more air I don't see the benefit. If you do a little head work on it you could get some gains out of it.

Lots of false information written above. Not trying to blow any one out, or piss anyone off but the injectors all have different flow rates, and latencies. If you change to new injectors with charecteristics, the ECU will adjust the fuel maps under CLOSED LOOP conditions ONLY to reach stoich at a light cruise, but it will NOT modify the open loop fuel map, because its just that - open loop. I upgrade injectors and scale them electronically daily as part of my job (I have 4 X 152 lb injectors in my car) Assuming you've gotten the correct pulsewidth and latency values, and the means to program them - you will run into problems with a stock ecu as the flow rates reach uncontrollable limits. The pulse width for light cruise load cells near stoich at low RPM require very little fuel, and you get some "curving" of the pulsewidth due to the mechanical limits of what the injectors do.

As far as the false information goes, I am not positive of anything beyond telling him that they will fit. Everything else that I mentioned about injectors or the PCM learning is hearsay. I have zero fuel injection tuning experience. Just putting that out there. lol

Okay you lost me here but I'd like to understand what you are saying. Here is where I'm getting some of my info:

2.3L Ford EFI Modifications - Fuel Injectors! - Getting the most out of the Ford 2.3L Engine Website

His math makes sense and I'd like you and everyone else to understand that I'd be doing this AFTER the cold air induction from Volant. So there would be more air than stock and I might possibly P&P the head.

In the guys info (link above) he does get a bit confusing though: he says the computer will relearn injector settings up to 10% more which is like 17lbs, but then goes with 19lb injectors and then says they work great. There were two other guys in Ranger Station that claimed they had installed the same and had great results. I dont know who's wrong or right but I'm really trying to simply understand it all from as many that are willing to share and explain. Would you mind applying this website link to your explanation and dumb it down for an idiot :439:

I'm happy to help you any way I can

The intake does not give you any more air in the engine, it only is less restrictive than the stock intake. Doesn't matter because your stock engine can't draw in enough air that would even make the OEM filter a restriction.

This would raise the VE but either way you still need a tune after a P/P.

10% is the limit of how far the fuel trims like to travel without throwing lean or rich codes. The "tune" in the rom is a map with the "perfect" pulsewidth of fuel, if something needs to be corrected, it scales the pulsewidth for you. So if you used bigger injectors, and the Keep Alive Memory table were to scale it, it would show a number Less than 0 in your fuel trim, anything less than -10 would throw a rich code. If you scale the pulsewidth correctly, you can adjust it so that when the truck is running correctly the trims are at zero. Your fuel trims should always be at zero.

So many people use tricks to lie to the computer, or don't understand the consequences of thier modifications. For example, I tuned a base level Lancer Ralliart a few weeks ago with an aftermarket intake on the car. When I strapped the car on the dyno, and plugged up my laptop and wideband AEM management I ran the car, as soon as it hit boost I saw DANGEROUS AFR's in the 13 range! I immediately stopped the pull and had to rescale the MAF so that the trims were zero, or I could have damaged the customers engine. I don't know how long he had been doing full boost pulls with the setup, and I don't know what damage has been done to the rings or pistons because of high EGT's and knock that the computer was hopefully preventing by pulling timing and dumping extra fuel.

My point to this long story is that in this customers case, bigger injectors would have shifted the trims back towards zero themselves because "2 wrongs make a right" - Unmetered fuel, and unmetered air. The question I ask is why lie to any sensor, or purposely de-calibrate your fuel or air charging system.

I think I'm picking up what your throwing down here. So in short, I would need a computer rom tune with these changes? And after these changes it would actually work and run well?

Last question I guess I would have is would the 17lb injectors work without a computer change?

[QUOTE=arownious;1633993].......So in short, I would need a computer rom tune with these changes? ......

Absolutely. You need the latency adjusted and the pulsewidth globally scaled.

When you say "work well" I think of 2 things.

1 - It runs correctly
2 - Performance is enhanced

With the correct latency and pulsewidth scaling you should not be able to tell from a "reliability/drive-ability" standpoint. As far as performance being enhanced:

You need air and fuel in the correct amounts to make power. Like making a cake, if you need 1 egg for every 10 parts of batter. If you want to make "alot of cake" you need say 7 eggs for every 70 parts batter. Having 3 eggs with only 10 parts of batter won't help you any. Same thing - you need more "batter" (air) - Which means Cam(s)/Springs, P/P - Valves ect..

I don't see the point in it myself, unless you were running higher compression pistons with better fuel (E85) I don't think you want to spend the kind of money it takes to force more air into the engine (Boost). Just my .02$

Will it "work" (start, run, get you to work) - Maybe.

Will it "work good" - not unless the latency and flow are really close to your stock ones.

Jp7 in your experience with the 2.3 have you been able to narrow down what exactly it is about the engine that's so restrictive with air? Is it just the valves and cam?

I guess I'm wondering if the intake manifold is just sucky or maybe the head doesn't match up correctly with the intake or something along those lines that can be physically fixed.

Most of these engines today have poorly finished heads that are highly restrictive compared to the surrounding bolt on parts. Opening the head up increases VE, but usually makes the engine less friendly to drive. Mainly because of modern emissions you have such short cam profiles on newer engines.

I know on my newer dohc 2.3 it has a highly restrictive butterfly valve in the runner path. I don't care though, because I don't even go WOT in that truck. 130HP is fine for it. Subaru does the same thing with a butterfly called a TVG but I use a TVG delete kit to remove those.

Point is, if you want to make your vehicle faster, you should plan ahead and buy something with lots of aftermarket support. If you buy a vehicle that is commonly used for track racing, there will be plenty of support for software and hardware changes.

Oh no I bought it to be a little gas friendly truck, and I know these engines will run for very high mileage if taken care of.

I'm just looking to give it 10-20 hp extra if thats at all realistic. I know one of the more simple things to do for higher end highway driving would be change the gear ration to 3.73 or 4.10 but I was hoping there might be something I could do to get the full potential from the engine without making any 'major' changes (P&P I dont consider major) or spending major money, or even risking damage to the engine.

This is only going to be my daily driver and hauler (light stuff only) never a street rod or racer.

I can't even feel this. I can't even feel 50 after its been measured on a dyno. Torque is what you feel, if it isn't a jump of 100 foot pounds then I don't even notice.

Honestly I'm not worried about dyno or feel or acceleration, but simply wanting to truck to be able to do 80mph down the highway without me having to wait 15min for it to get up to speed.

If I can't pass people on the highway thats going to be rough.

Random Fact: It only takes 40 HP for the average vehicle to go 80mph.

Haha oh God thats so sad then. Granted I've done some work thus far since, but when I first bought this truck it struggled to get to 70mph.

Should I stick with first changing out the 3.45 ration in the rear end to 3.73 or 4.10 and seeing how that changes things?

For example, I tuned a base level Lancer Ralliart a few weeks ago with an aftermarket intake on the car. When I strapped the car on the dyno, and plugged up my laptop and wideband AEM management I ran the car, as soon as it hit boost I saw DANGEROUS AFR's in the 13 range! I immediately stopped the pull and had to rescale the MAF so that the trims were zero, or I could have damaged the customers engine. I don't know how long he had been doing full boost pulls with the setup, and I don't know what damage has been done to the rings or pistons because of high EGT's and knock that the computer was hopefully preventing by pulling timing and dumping extra fuel.
[/QUOTE]
dude boosted a ralliart? was that because customer prefers fwd over awd? i had a ralliart but always wanted an evo, thought about boosting my ralliart but everyone I talked to about it said bad idea, to just get an evo.
also, I enjoy reading your posts, you are very knowledgeable.