Suspension setup to handle "whoops" - Ranger-Forums - The Ultimate Ford Ranger Resource


Suspension Tech General discussion of suspension for the Ford Ranger.

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Old 02-22-2005
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Suspension setup to handle "whoops"

Some people like soft rides, some people like stiffer rides. But what is the better setup for handling the whoop sections at approx 20-30mph? Do I want a stiffer front, softer front, or is just a travel issue?

The biggest problems seem to be when coming off one into the other, as the truck goes from one extreme to the other. It almost sounds like something is slamming into to something...maybe the bump stops, or the tires on the inner fender...not sure which. I was looking at the lower arm and you can see the clean spot under the bump stop on the dirty arm, so impact was definately made.

What do I need to do (other than a $3k LT kit) that is relatively feasible (stiffer torsion bars, reservoir shocks, bypass shocks)? Not familiar yet with bypass shocks, but heard you guys mention them. And not sure if reservoir shocks will do anything there. My understanding is the reservoir is to keep the fluid cooler which would help with cyclical behavior over a long period.

I have spindles I will be putting on soon. I most likely will be replacing the upper arm/ball joints with the new MOOG upper arm which is supposed to provide 10 degrees more movement in the ball joints (if I remember correctly).

Any ideas?

Here's a few comments already:

Quote:
What you really need is more travel. You can twist your torsion bars and get about 2 - 3 inches of lift, this will make the ride a lot better and also help you out on your downtravel. Stiffer torsion bars and shocks will help slow down how long it takes to get from the wheel fully drooped at the top of a whoop and then down to the bumpstops at the bottom, but you will still be smashing the extreme of both up and down. But when it comes to our suspension, IFS + torsion bars do not leave much room for hitting whoops without putting a lot of money into it.
Quote:
Okay Mike, I'm taking a study break for now. Let's kick this off.

I'll start by describing what happens when your truck goes through whoops. As stated previously, the truck will experience motions that are not very pleasant, unless you have about 12" of travel, which we have nowhere close to. When going through these whoops, the truck will take the first few just fine, but then as the front starts to land in the ruts as the rear takes off, the rear end will buck and bounce back. When this happens, you're pretty much screwed if you're going too fast. I have seen more guys roll their trucks in whoops because they thought that they could handle it, and were very wrong. They lost their truck and some even their lives because they are over-confident. My word of warning is this: when off-roading, be confident enough to make good decisions, but stay humble enough to not do anything bone-headed. If, when you go out, you are not afraid of anything, you are endangering yourself and others. The idea is to still have obstacles that intimidate you; this way, you know your limits and hopefully will not attempt anything larger than that until you are ready. As someone that knows this, please do not push your luck. The truck comes down, then goes back up, and the amount of wheel travel that we have stock can not accommodate for the droop that is needed for the wheels to keep power and the truck on the ground, thus causing the bucking motion that the truck goes through, and you will no-doubtedly hit your bumpstops because the arms cannot extend and compress the way they would if you had LT suspension, which will keep all wheels (for the most part) on the ground the whole time. When you went through these whoops, you were hitting bumpstops and fenders. I even have a trouble with hitting my rear when I go out to Pismo. This is also the major reason that us desert-rats get fiberglass, to tuck the tires when at full compression. Form fits function in the desert world. You may not think some of these things are pretty, but we're talking more for performance than looks. Would you rather have a pretty disco truck that is now being towed home from being crashed? Or a beater-looking chase-truck that can handle the baja without breaking anything but the drivers @$$?

Now, for you, I would recommend something like the Camburg 6.0 entry-level or dual-shock kit. I know what you all are thinking: "Oh, well he's the G-E.com Camburg spokesperson, of course he'll promote Camburg." Well, in this case, you are absolutely correct. This kit (as well as Weldtec's upper arms) will yield up to 10" of travel, double what we have stock. This kit really can perform well both on and off-road. It is a much better ride than stock, even on the streets. The shocks do make a big difference (Bilstein 5100's) but the major part of this kit that allows for a smoother ride is the uniball that is built into the spindle/upper-arm assembly. This ball allows pretty much double the movement of a lousy ball joint, and if maintained correctly, will last forever. It is this key component that frees up the extra travel. In turn, more wheel travel means that the arms can droop further, also meaning that when you hit a whoop the arms can droop further down to reach the ground and you will not buck (keep in mind that you will want to upgrade the rear suspension as well). I would say that a uniball upper arm with new shocks will let your front handle like a pro. As for the rear, as already suggested, some 5150's/7100's should work great with a Deaver/National spring pack to allow for more travel and a smoother ride (you will need to limit your rear with this set-up, as the leaves will droop further than the shocks, and if it is not strapped, then the shock will over-extend and fall apart).

- - Crud, I started talking to someone and derailed my train of thought. Bear with me, let's keep goin', . - -

Now comes the fun part. It's time for "Dampening Hour" with Trent. All that shocks are, are dampening devices. Simply put, as I recall from Chris' and Rob's discussion on the first G-E.com site: "What is a spring without a damper?" Well it's exactly that, just a spring (coil springs/orsion bars or leaf springs). Without something to slow down the rate of compression, you will have two major things happen. 1) The truck is less protected and for every hit that the suspension takes, the impact-energy is greater on the truck and it will wear and brake much faster (and in many cases it is the same with the driver too). And 2) Your ride will go to [email protected] A shock acts as a sort of delay that the truck has to go through in order to reach the point where the suspension is at full compression. It will dampen this impact and allow the suspension to cycle more smoothly and more slowly, allowing the energy of the impact to go into the shock rather than the truck. As I stated on another post, when energy is distributed on a vehicle, the more material and dampening that it has to go through to reach the frame the better. A shock does exactly this. I know 99.99% of you already know this, but that was a 'brief' interim for what I am about to say about reservoir and bypass shocks. Now that we have that over with, let's move to a reservoir shock. The purpose of a reservoired shock is to allow more cooling (as stated) as well as allowing the shock to live longer by having slightly more room in the actual shock body itself (because the reservoir is external and large, the full body can be used for the actual components of the shock). Now comes something we know as "shock fade." This is when the components of the shock (beit N, gas, what have you) heat up so much from harsh use that the shock literally gives out and you lose dampening abilities within that shock for a period of time until it can cool off again. This is why it is common to see trucks (that aren't coilover-ed) that have dual or even triple shocks, to increase dampening as well as reduce shock fade in extreme use. Chances are, on the street, you won't be needing to prepare against shock fade, but off-road it is a definite consideration to make your truck ready for. That is basically what a reservoir shock is. Now we can move on to bypass shocks (either one, two, or three bypasses can be on any given shock). What a bypass does is allow you to further tune that shock (valve it) to best fit your vehicle's off-road ride. Say you want a stiffer suspension, well you just adjust the amount of N going into the shock. Vice versa for a smoother ride. You are not constantly adding and releasing this N out of the shock, simply moving it within these external bypasses to allow for finer tuning to get the vehicle to ride the way that you want it to.

Now that that is covered, haha, let me get back to your original question. What I would recommend to you is, like I said, a kit that has an upper arm with a uniball and new shocks for the front. A monotube shock such as the 5100 would work great (it's stiff, but remember that stiffer=more protection for the truck in most cases, for if it is too stiff, then you risk snapping your frame for the very same reasons that if it is too soft). If you decide to move up to a reservoir shock, then your performance-potential will go up that much more. Even further, if speaking of a bypass or even a coilover, then the truck is very well protected (must be valved correctly though) against impacts and you will be able to take on much much more. However, remember that ANY shock can only perform if the arms/beams are set up to recieve them (longer arms and beams allow more travel and more droop for off-road). On the back, I would have to say to get a good pack of Deaver or National springs (Deaver F-23 if you don't want to cut a hole in your bed and use flipped shackles) and run a reservoir shock on the rear, such as a 5150, or better yet, a 7100 that is valved to work for the rear of a Ranger.

Just a reminder, that if you knew this stuff already, that is great, but I typed as much as I did to help some people out that are still learning about suspension. As I said, I'm no suspension guru, but please don't flame on me for trying to help someone out, thanks.

Whew! If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I doubt my response will be this long from here on out as I think I now have carpal tunnle syndrome
And finally my repsonse:

Quote:
Thanks for the book Trent! Very helpful.

Ok, as much as I would love to get the Performance 6.0, it isn't going to happen. So my only shot at uniballs for the upper is the Weldtech arm. That ran about $500 right? Was there some possiblity of a group buy, but you needed a certain amount of people first right? Were you able to get pics of this setup? The arm is bolt on right? What about the shock hoop for dual shocks? I see on your original post about A arms they have an option for a shock hoop. Are dual shocks really worth it? Or would running one quality shock be better than two ok shocks?
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Old 02-22-2005
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Quote:
What you really need is more travel. You can twist your torsion bars and get about 2 - 3 inches of lift, this will make the ride a lot better and also help you out on your downtravel. Stiffer torsion bars and shocks will help slow down how long it takes to get from the wheel fully drooped at the top of a whoop and then down to the bumpstops at the bottom, but you will still be smashing the extreme of both up and down. But when it comes to our suspension, IFS + torsion bars do not leave much room for hitting whoops without putting a lot of money into it.



Who the hell said that?!?!?!?! i will NOT help your down travel and in fact it will decrease it. you have pretty much a set range of travel right now, and without greatly upgrading shocks and arms you wont get more ESPECIALLY by cranking your tbars 2-3 inches. in fact cranking your tbars DECREASES travel if anything. not to mention cranking you tbars that high is just idiotic.

I dont know about woops because i dont do that kind of four wheeling but who ever said cranking you tbars will get you travel doesnt know what they are talking about.
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Old 02-22-2005
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also you probably shouldnt attempt woops in a truck with a cast iron spindle lift, from what i heard cast iron spindles WILL break in woops.
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Old 02-22-2005
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haha...that's why i posted that one. I didnt think it was right. Thanks for clarifying that. Does anyone know what decreases the travel by cranking the tbars? What is the "danger" in cranking them that much? The ball joints? What if you were to get custom upper arms with uniballs, wouldnt that alleviate the ball joints issue all together and then also since the downward travel actually has to be strapped maybe there is enough travel to make up for the downward travel lost by cranking the tbars? Unless the decrease is in the springs (tbars) and then there wouldnt be a way to regain the lost travel with those bars.
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Old 02-22-2005
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Would removing the sway bar help with this? Doesnt the sway bar limit the articulation on the front end?

EDIT: Here's another response from the "other" board

Quote:
On a budget, run a fox 2.0 with a shock hoop. Then revalve it so it is really stiff. Next strap it off at 8.5 inches of travel.
After that go have fun!!!

For the back, I would get a deaver prerunner pack and a nice set of shocks. The back will still buck but you should be able to go through the whoops a decent speed.

This is my version of budget desert edge.

Last edited by sawred; 02-22-2005 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 02-22-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawred
haha...that's why i posted that one. I didnt think it was right. Thanks for clarifying that. Does anyone know what decreases the travel by cranking the tbars? What is the "danger" in cranking them that much? The ball joints? What if you were to get custom upper arms with uniballs, wouldnt that alleviate the ball joints issue all together and then also since the downward travel actually has to be strapped maybe there is enough travel to make up for the downward travel lost by cranking the tbars? Unless the decrease is in the springs (tbars) and then there wouldnt be a way to regain the lost travel with those bars.




Well its like this, lets say you have a degree of motion, for a quick number 45 degrees. lets say your arms have 45 degrees of motion stock and the starting point is 0 degrees. now start the a arms at 15 degrees and then you only have 30 degrees of motion. LOST down travel. now you still sort of have the motion in uptravel but if you bottom out with cranked tbars they will fatigue like nobodies business or maybe even snap!


You could get upper arms but you still have lower ball joints too.


theres no "easy" way to just gain enough travel and strength. either you are a master fabricator, or you have money. sadly thats just the way it is and the only thing you can do is take fabrication classes, research the hell out of stuff, get to know good people etc. and that will make it eeasier but never "easy"
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Old 02-22-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawred
Would removing the sway bar help with this? Doesnt the sway bar limit the articulation on the front end?

EDIT: Here's another response from the "other" board



well the sway bar will give you a little more "articulation" but not more travel, It just lets the arms move independently and articulate from one side to the next.



As for the fox 2.0s and hoop, I dont really know, like I said thats not my aspect of four wheeling and have never relly payed attention to fox's line, but remember even that wont be "cheap" cause I do know that fox shocks are pricey. I dont know why you would need fox shocks though as weldtech arms alone boast 9 inches strapped with a less limiting shock, doesnt have to be any particular shock, just have to have the right uptravel and downtravel.
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  #8  
Old 02-22-2005
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*sniff*....*tear*....very good SuperGildo....you're getting the hang of it :)
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Old 02-22-2005
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Originally Posted by Shalafi49
*sniff*....*tear*....very good SuperGildo....you're getting the hang of it :)






im trying
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Old 02-22-2005
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Quote:
Mike, I will be "unveiling" the WTD arms very soon, I may even just go write it up after this. The arms are now running about 700-800 due to the fact that Jeremy will not be using bushings from now on but all heims. Heims act as uniball or monoball would, allowing much more movement and much longer life. They cannot degrade and rot like bushings can. It is a simple bolt-on, you can do both sides in about an hour if you have a good tool hand. Dual shocks area an option, however you would need to get a welded hoop (when your talking about suspension, if you hear the words 'drop bracket/hangar' or 'bolt-on' hoops, get away). Bolt-on shock hoops and drop hangars are something to steer clear of. Sure, you'll see that pretty disco truck with 9 reservoir shocks on each corner that has bolt-on stuff, but there is a reason that those trucks do not go out and race, they would break relatively easy in the desert/dirt/mud what have you.

When talking about the amount of shocks on the front end, you can go up to about 3 regular monotube shocks and still have a pretty good front. If you wanted more dampening than that I would suggest moving up to reservoirs, which like I posted, will protect the truck better and allow for less shock fade, as well as giving you the option of valving this shock to meet your ride requirements. To answer your question, though, a reservoir shock such as a 2.5" diameter smooth body shock can handle much better than two 5100's, and beyond that would be bypasses and later on coilovers. This 'suspension succession" directly relates to how well the suspension can take the impact placed on the vehicle. If you want to have that bling of dual shocks, I would go with the 5100's or 7100's w/reservoirs, but if you want real performance, I would find someone that can stuff a 2.5" diameter smooth body in there. Hitting whoops such as you do at about 20-30mph, even a single 5100 would do you fine, as long as the abuse isn't repetitive (remember about the cooling to prevent from fading), and just move on up the line from there until you find a set-up that meets your needs.
My response:

Quote:
haha...Trent, look at my truck...there's nothing bling about it Ok, that chrome CB ball mount is totally trick...I'm more function over form.

Dang, now why'd he have to go and do something like that I was just getting myself ok with 500. I know i know, you get what you pay for.

This may end up with MOOG uppers and a reservoir shock.

The abuse isnt enduring, i'm not running baja. Just the backwoods of NJ. There are plenty of trails that really cycle the suspension though with the whoops. And washboard trails, that's another topic waiting to happen.

What do you mean "find someone that can stuff a 2.5" diameter smooth body in there"?

What about the 5150's? How are they?
Are they available for our trucks? I se a lot more eye/eye shocks than what our fronts are. (Not sure what it's called, but it has the rod/eye right?)
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Old 02-22-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPERGILDO
Who the hell said that?!?!?!?! i will NOT help your down travel and in fact it will decrease it. you have pretty much a set range of travel right now, and without greatly upgrading shocks and arms you wont get more ESPECIALLY by cranking your tbars 2-3 inches. in fact cranking your tbars DECREASES travel if anything. not to mention cranking you tbars that high is just idiotic.

I dont know about woops because i dont do that kind of four wheeling but who ever said cranking you tbars will get you travel doesnt know what they are talking about.
And don't kill me Gil, I'm just the messenger.

Quote:
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

Cranking your torsion bars will not give you down travel, but the ride and the safety of the truck when off-road will get better, much better. What tightening your bars does is not only increase the 'height' of the truck, but it stiffens the spring rate as well, giving more 'delay' as I talked about in my book for the suspension to act on before full compression. He is incorrect about the decrease of wheel travel, however, as they will not do anything to travel, postive or negative, no matter how much you tighten OR loosen them.

One thing that you can do (remember what I said about being an unsafe driver though?) is to remove your sway bar. This WILL add to down travel (a rough inch or two) because it takes the solid-like front suspension when a sway bar is attached, and converts it to a true IFS (independent front suspension) with no limitations to how much the arms can move.

As to the cast iron, yes he is correct about these things breaking from time to time, but look what I have done in my truck with cast spindles. I know a few buddies that are using cast spindles with balljoints in their home-made LT kits, and they have been just fine. You just shouldn't push your luck, and you'll be good.
Maybe some day everyone will have the same understanding of torsion bars. Until then let the debate continue
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Old 02-22-2005
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haha this is like the UN!


which member on GE is that, just for reference.
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Old 02-22-2005
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Originally Posted by SUPERGILDO
haha this is like the UN!


which member on GE is that, just for reference.


Trent (Splitfire)
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2005
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friggin IDIOT


whats whoops offroading, btw?
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Old 02-22-2005
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Cranking the t-bars will give you more "landing" travel since you're starting at more extension, at the expense of down travel.

However, with more uptravel comes more twisting on the bar, which fatigues it. I'm here to tell you since I now have my t-bars at max just to HOLD the atltitude I put on them before. I run the same terrain you do, Mike. I'm getting some stiffer bars at some point and replacing these.

Anyway, as the torsion bar winds up from a further extended position, it gets tighter and tighter, effectively increasing the resistance. With the RSX you should be okay for most of it shock wise.

I don't take them (whoops) as hard as you do. I think its probably not a good idea unless you really build the suspension. Sounds like you are going to be making improvements, but this is a light 4x2 truck and built accordingly up front. Be careful!
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Old 02-22-2005
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well trent knows his stuff but as far as the t bars, weve agreed so far that cranking them wil decrease down travel in any event.


now, as far as travel altogether, when you crank them, technically trent is right, you DO still have same travel but it goes a little like this; 3 inches down + 6 inches up = 9 inches travel or stock where it might be ; 5 inches down + 4 inches up = 9 inches travel, but what he doesnt mention is how hard it is to get the bars to bottom out when the t bars are cranked that stiff. a torsion bar is like any other spring, stiffen it up enough and its not gonna want to compress. for example you get a light duty coil and its gonna be bouncy because it will take less to compress it, where as a heavy duty thicker coil will take much more to compress. the potential travel is the same but it will be much harder to get it and you dont want it at the expense of your torsion bars. like anything a torsion bar CAN snap when too much torque is put on it and by carnking them you are for allowing the truck to be able to twist it more than its designed to handle which is bad because it will fatigue quickly and soon crack.


I think I read something about 3 inches higher stiffer spring rate whatever being safer and Im not quite clear on this coming from the guy who has been on a low center of gravity mission lately.


and lastly, sway bar. He may be right again about a rough inch of travel, but whats an inch?? not much. certainly something you probably will no notice and have you ever ridden without a swaybar?? its scary taking a turn a 20 MPH let alone what you are trying to do in the desert and whoops. My advice keep it on its not worth the inch. its really scary!! i had mine off for like 8 months and put it back on.
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Old 02-22-2005
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wow john I said the same thing as you kinda in the same time period that we were typing.
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Old 02-22-2005
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Ha ha! That's a hoot!

Great minds think alike...and so, too, do ours...
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Old 02-22-2005
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only thing i want to say in this thread...

don't remove your swaybar if you will be driving on roads or the highway...

i saw bjv11 make a turn at about 10mph w/o his swaybar on, and i thought he was going to flip over...

not safe at all, to remove that, on your daily driver...

now, someone talked about quick disconnects, a while back on another board... that might be an option, if you only took your front awaybar off, offroad...
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Old 02-23-2005
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ur not going to be charging any whoops without a coilover its not really smart because your shocks dont have quick rebound and you will break the spindal or a ball joint. i thought i could do it but i failed when all you do is bottom out i will just say dont do with out a long travel system or you will be paying for it just to fix i did twice!
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Old 02-23-2005
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Yeah, that's basically what I think. Mike is all about pushing the 4x2 as far as he can and though I respect it to some point (since I have to challenge mine as well) -- I think there are places you just have to slow down or not do them. That applies 4x2 or 4x4 but us 4x2 guys end up having to drive faster through things to keep from getting bogged down and it can become a problem in some terrain.
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Old 02-23-2005
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smarts always win in the end because you might be able to DRIVE the truck home after your done having fun
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Old 02-23-2005
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im running a 10 inch sway a way coilover with my stock a arms but i swtiched to uni-***** but im still very gental on her in whoops i just rather drive home then tow it
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Old 02-23-2005
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Yeah, I know when to apply the throttle and when to back off. It's nice to stroll through thw whoops sometimes and it nice to push it a little more. I like to find the fringe of the envelope my truck can withstand so i know not to exceed it. It doesn't mean i ride on the fringe all the time.
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Old 02-23-2005
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hey man im just letting you know trying to help a fellow ranger man out you might want to look into what i did then you can charge the whoops with a little more control my truck has a super modified stock long travel suspension it works
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