Solodos:

You're right we're not getting anywhere.

Notice in your response: you still don't address the loss of domestic heavy industry overseas. You didn't answer that point -- which I highlighted -- AT ALL. You don't address national autonomy, national security -- you NEVER answer on that. Could it be that you know you haven't a leg to stand on? Pretty much I say "national security" and you say "I want cheap quality".

Once more, ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE CONSUMER ECONOMIC ONES THAT ARE SELF SERVING. It says something about you.

You are in fact, more concerned about some nameless "CEO" getting rich, than you are about addressing the problem in industry moving offshore. You must be a very jealous and insecure person to be so concerned about some other guy getting rich doing a very difficult job.

Oh, and the reason industry moves offshore is because PEOPLE LIKE YOU want things cheaper, and don't want to work for them.

If you didn't get the joke about "up against the wall", that's because you didn't grow up in the 60's -- but it was a joke, hence the "crazy" smilie.

By the way, what do you do for a living, by chance? I bet you're either in school or in a "service economy" job. That may be blinding you to the facts as well.

 

Sorry, John, but even your arguments revolve around "your choice" and not "your responsibility". Think bigger.

 

Wow seriously, if I had the flames on my truck like the ones in this thread, people would see me and burst into flames. lol

I think everyone needs a hug, and not in a Homo way!

 

If no one bought a Nissan, then I'd be out of a job. The I wouldn't be able to afford my AMERICAN truck that I am CURRENTLY PAYING FOR, and fixing weekly. So I'm keeping the dream alive alright......

Nevermind the fact that I could get a Nissan for dirt cheap, but don't because I've got a Ranger......

 

Ok so buying a truck made here with a foreign tag hurts national security? Youre right I dont understand that.

as far as heavy industry goign overseas, i thought we were talking about trucks. Foreign trucks moving industry here, domestic moving out...where is your argument for domestic? If not trucks, which industry are you talking about, electronics?

As far as things going overseas b/c I want them cheaper, NO not necessarily. I want a quality product and will be willing to pay for it, plain and simple. A lot of foreign products suck, like tools. I like us tools, mostly b/c they use US steel which is better tahn chinese and malaysian steel. Now even some of our us tools are using foreign components. Not my choice, but the head guys. Now you are right the majority of the US consumer base does want cheaper goods so it does force companies to use foreign components, BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. My concern as it has been the whole time is QUALITY, from my very first post it was abotu a comparison of the quality, NOT PRICE. In fact mst foreign trucks are more $$ so your "looking for cheap" argument is void.

"Up agains the wall" yep youre right not around in the 60s. I was born in 81. SO nope didnt get the joke.

Now what I do for a living. I am an Environmental Technician for an Environemtnal Consulting firm. Now before you go HA service industry, no not exactly. Yes we provide a service, but it has nothing to do with foreign crap or being cheap. We charge a hefty price, but we are the best in our area at what we do, wetland delineations, stream restorations, etc.

 

How abotu when the time comes for my Titan, I give you a holler! haha

 

Maybe if this country didn't **** everybody else off, we wouldn't put ourselves in a situation where others may not help us if we needed it.

But on topic, although i don't think it was the original topic, what is wrong with a truck that is built in America? Those hundreds of thousands of people at that plant have a job. The thing that sticks out in my mind, from recent exposure is my leaf springs are stamped "Made in Mexico". Sure, the CEO's of Ford may be making money, but there are Americans who don't have jobs b/c the CEO's wanted more money and went with cheaper labor. Which call me whatever, but I don't understand how buying a product from an American owned company is better than buying an American assembled product. The top 1% have something like 90% of the wealth in this country, numbers maybe slightly off, but that's what i think it was...I am definately not in the 1%, and i would doubt anyone on here is...so why are we putting more money in their pockets and not in the pockets of assembly men and women who work in the plants building "foreign" cars whn the rich get richer by buying cheaper labor outside of the country???

Sidenote: Isn't Dodge and Jeep owned by DaimlerChrysler, which is a foreign company i think? So really, buying a Dodge or Jeep would therefore no longer be buying American. And where does something like Mazda fall in line? Or Acura?

 

Okay, I'll explain.

Is the bulk of the truck made here? Engine etc? I decry FORD farming that stuff out. Just the ability to assemble foreign parts in the US isn't much industrial capacity.

That could apply to trucks (truck plants can make military gear in a pinch), etc. Electronics is so whacked over here I have to lay down and concede defeat on that one -- we may never get that back and that's WRONG. Fortunately there ARE still some silicon and advance GaAs and other semiconductor stuff here if we need it.

What about all the support that goes along with a full range manufacturer? Tool and die, suppliers, all sorts of things. What about the design engineers? What about having that talent on-line and right here where we can get it when we need it? Do you think industrial and equipment (like trucks) can be designed by amateurs after a short course in engineering? Real, TRAINED talent pools require an infrastructure to keep them employed so they are THERE when needed.

Whether you realize it or not, your choice of what truck you buy has ripple effects that are part of (and don't try to say I'm saying that's all of it -- it's just an example) an overall decline in a natural resource: research, engineering, design, development, assembly, etc. More and more of the critical portions of that move offshore everyday.

If a foreign company makes a product in the US, using MAJOR components designed and built by Americans, then that's just foreign ownership. All the talent and resources are HERE. In a pinch, we can "nationalize" (read: seize it and take it over) if the need is there.

As even Ford and others offshore more and more major components, and even outsource engineering and design, this country becomes increasingly a nation of consumers working service jobs to afford to buy overseas made products.

Many of which fill the pockes of FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS and FOREIGN CEO's.

Well, that's it. I don't think you guys even SEE what's happening in this country, or what it means. So I'll let it go. Too bad, though -- it bodes ill for our future as a prosperous INDEPENDENT nation.

 

THANK YOU, finally an explaination.

Ok so you made a good point, but it is not jsut foreign trucks. like you said for is going more and more over seas, hell they use more and more foreign made parts. So they are on teh same platform adn Nissan and the like, EXCEPT alot of fords are assembled overseas adn Nissans are assembled here (the titan and frontier anyway). So that puts ford in the foreign category you speak of. Thank you for helping me convey my thoughts better.

 

Nissan looks nice, but i have to say that the Tacoma front end is ugly.

They may have more power but they also weigh a lot more so it doesn't make as big a diffrence as it could.

for the American only thing, well the way i look at it Ford and GM are American company's while the foreign companies make cars here they still have their businesses in other companies and their profit's don't come to the US the same way

 

John,

I hope our discussion doesnt get you all pissed at me. i would still liek to be able to go wheeling with y'all up in centralia some time. I am not at all getting mad at you, jsut disagreeing.

 

Actually, more than you might think.....

At Smyrna, TN (my plant) we build the Altima, Maxima, Frontier, Pathfinder, and Xterra.

In Canton MS, they build the Armada, Titan, QX56, the Quest, and they also build Altimas to relieve pressure off us.

We are selling 1,000,000 units globally, anually. Targets have already been met for this quarter, things looks promising. That means job security for us employees, so we can afford our Fords and Chevys.

 

So you see the fit and finsih. Woudl you ever purcase a Nissan? are all the parts shipped here and jsut assembled? I would like to learn more about the process. Thanks

 

No, and I'm sorry for my tone. If you've observed, I'm a pretty emotional debater -- to the point where it gets in the way of what I'm saying. I get pissed as I argue a subject, and it is at the person I'm arguing with -- though really the emotion comes from how I feel about what the person is saying, not the person. But it doesn't always come out that way when I'm mad.

I really don't get so mad at a person as to not want to associate with them (Michael Jackson comes to mind) but on RARE occasions, and you're not even CLOSE buddy. My emotions are like weather -- they just blow over and I hope there's no damage!

I'm sorry for the way I got personal about it. Can you tell I feel strongly about it, lol? Hey, I'd go wheeling with you even if you were driving a Nissan -- when you get right down to it, at the end of the day, we're neighbors and fellow Americans and I'm not going to let it get in the way. You obviously feel the same.

Despite the emotion, I think it was a great discussion. Who's right? Well, we all think we've got the picture and chances are NONE of us have it completely right. There are good arguments on both sides -- but I'm very much in favor of America being more independent, even if it means lower quality or higher prices. I do believe, however, that I am in the minority!

 

Fit and finish is outstanding IMO....much better than my Ranger, that's for sure. I've had the body compnents on and off my truck, and they (Nissan) did their homework on the Frontier. There are numerous safety devices....side curtain airbags are standard, rollover ratings are fantastic. Notice the lower clearance, even on the 4x4s? They did that for safety reasons. Unfortunately, it means you might not be able to go rock crawling, but we have a dedicated test track, both a dirt one and an asphalt version, behind the plant. The NISMO Fronty does excellent on both. The Xterra is the better of the two for offroading IMO.....it's lighter, and has the same motor. Clearance is slightly higher.

At Nissan we put each vehicle through numerous safety checks before it even leaves the final line. Each vehicle is driven on the test track, over simlulated street obstacles (potholes)....the list goes on. And I honestly doubt you'll find a beter paint finish on anything less than $75,000. We put each unit throuh no-less than 14 pre-treatment phases, BEFORE paint. This is to ensure years of rust free life. I wish I could say the same for my Ranger. I've already got rust on the A-pillar.

Also remember that the Nissan 3.5 V-6 has been featured in Ward's Auto and Motor Trend's Ten Best Engines reviews for the last eleven years. The 4.0 is a very very similar motor.....

Don't forget the factory E-lockers on all trucks as an option, standard on the NISMO. There's a lot less slop in the chassis, also. The factory NISMO truck feels as agile and taut as my truck with $1,500 in suspension modifications. Huge swaybars, IRS in the Pathy, and 4-wheel disc (standard on Titan, Pathy--optional on Fronty) all help these thing handle excellent.

All cars start out as a roll of sheet metal. We stamp our own fenders, hoods, floors, everything. The only things that arrives at our facility fuly assembled are wheels, driveshafts, dash panels, etc. All bumpers made of TPE plastic are molded at our plant....It's a huge plant. There are over 15 miles of conveyor line in our trim plant alone. Nevermind Body shop and Paint plant.

We crank out over 2,300 vehicles every 24 hours. Six days a week. Our facility was recently recognized as one of the most efficient auto plants in the world based on productivity, cleanliness, defects, etc.

So, yeah. I'm proud to work here.

 

Ah, jeez, it's turned into a Nissan commercial...

 

Ahhh. Just my cup of tea. A stimulating intellectual discussion on a topic of major importance. And something that's not allowed elsewhere (which I don't agree with, but totally accept, as its up to the site owner to allow this kind of topic or not).

I'm not going to give the lengthy dissertation that I'd like to give, but I'll make a few points, hoping that certain people will realize that just because I don't address every fawcet of the issue does not mean that I don't have an (hopefully intelligent) opinion on all those side issues.

I agree with N3ELZ that America has lost far too much, and continues to loose far too much of its industrial base, both light and heavy, and that this does not bode well for our military and economic security. However, there are numerous reasons for this. In my view, buying or not buying American is just one of the reasons and is not one of the major reasons. I believe that a major reason is that American business, and particularly the people who run the corporations, have decided to transfer much of the industrial base overseas and have done so and will continue to do so no matter how little or how much the people "buy American". They have transferred whole companies, divisions of companies, and the production of particular items overseas. They have used American capital to build companies overseas. They have outsourced production as well as jobs. They also have outsourced capital. THEY, the corporate boards and execs have done this.

A large portion of the corporate execs and the people who finance business have also decided, for reasons I won't go into, that more profit can be made by switching from industries that actually make things to service and infotech businesses and by switching from heavy industries to light industries. THEY have done this, and will continue to do so no matter how much the American public buys the products they produce in America.

The corporate boards and execs have for decades now engaged in a massive feeding frenzy whereby companies in numerous types of industries, including all of the industries crucial to our national defense, buy each other out, resulting, for example, in lowering the number of companies that build military planes from numerous companies to, at last count, two. This has happened in numerous industries. It seriously detracts from competition, the number of companies thinking about how to build a better product, the number of companies that are able to build that product, and what we pay for the product. The feds have turned a blind eye to this and allowed it to happen. Buying American has had NOTHING to do with this.

My point is that the profit motive is now God to American business. They do not care about their employees, their retirees, the people who buy their goods and services, national security, or anything else other than making $.

Products made overseas, and purchased in the U.S. by us, have often had a positive, often a very positive, effect, on the quality of competing American products. Cars, trucks, and SUV's are an excellent case in point. It is no longer debatable that the quality of the motor vehicles produced in Japan since at least the 80's and sold here has forced the big 3 in the U.S. to stop making the shoddy crap they used to sell us and start improving the quality of American made vehicles. If we had bought American during those decades we would still be buying American made junk. Japan single-handledly, with their imports, forced American companies to build much better vehicles and the reason is THAT MANY OF US DID NOT BUY AMERICAN. And we have all benefited from it. To the extent that those American companies build military vehicles we also benefit. And we'll benefit if a major war comes and the big 3 retool to build military vehicles on a massive scale. I personally would not want to go to war in a Humvee, personnel carrier, tank, or truck of the quality of, for example, the cars that Chrysler built in the 80's.

My last point should be obvious. There is much, much more to this issue than simply asserting that failure to buy American has caused and continues to cause, the withering away of light, and especially heavy, industry. Buying American is not really even much of a cause of that withering away. In some cases, such as military planes, its no cause at all.

 

 

He he! Hi, John Mac' -- long time no see!

I agree with you more than disagree these days -- but buying American MUST be part of the equation, and sometimes it's ALL we can do.

American products may have eventually changed, by public demand, WITHOUT imports. I don't totally buy that imports "improve" American business -- but I concede that it SOMETIMES does.

I think far often, foreign suppliers are just undercutting us until we wilt. Then they will begin to jack their prices. China is already starting to do this.

And I maintain that the availability of cheap imports in MANY sectors still IS the reason for industrial decline. It's an old story: undersell your competitor until they fold. If we can think of it, so can other countries. I believe this does happen.

So, with allowances that some of the forces you cite exist, I still don't concede that buying American doesn't help. As I say, NOT doing that makes it worse no matter what -- so how it can be a good thing? The "competitive" argument is too narrow to me to carry any weight in a broad look at the problem.

By the way, that "service economy" you talk about? It's an untried economic theory with plenty of evidence that it will harm us in the long run. How about if we depended on a French owned Asian company for our military firepower? Is that a situation you think would be wise?

If the American military ever starts buying from Airbus I give up.

How's things up there in the far north?

 

If this were church I'd holler: Amen!

 

Yes, you would, lol! But you'd still be worshipping a very narrow case, and making it a general rule. Bad process.

You substitute consumer greed for corporate greed. Both are a problem. Greed is a human nature problem, and NOT limited to big corporations. Some of you liberals forget that.

But you still fail to explain the decline. If competition were SO good, American manufacturing business would be thriving. It's not.

 

A greed lecture from a man who just told us all that drilling the ANWR is a good idea!

 

I'm not greedy. (that's what they all say...)

It's in all of us. But so are you. Look at what you drive, etc.

By the way, imports triumphed on price AND quality in that period you ballyhoo. It wasn't just that they were better -- they were cheaper. People would have bought them just on price.

I want nice big tariffs on incoming subassemblies. If they can get the quality, let that be the determining factor, not price. Make it more attractive to make it ALL here.

And that goes for Ford and their Mexican/Canadian stuff as well!

And with where we are now in energy, drilling in ANWR is an EXCELLENT idea. I doubt the ecosystem will even notice. It's mostly tundra anyway.

 

I'm on board w/ that argument.

..And just for arguments sake: one of the biggest reasons I bought my truck was that it was thousands less than any import I had looked at. Back in the day imports were far cheaper than domestics.. and that was before the quality was there. Ask my father about his '76 Civic. But in the 80's the foreign makers put some moves on and improved substantially. In the late 80's and early 90's their quality was better and their prices started to rise. Now their more expensive by far compared to domestics. I won't comment on quality as I've always thought of it as neck and neck in recent years, however the countless problems I've had w/ my Ford are leading me to rethink this..

 

HAHA yes it seems!