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  #276  
Old 11-24-2011
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What would be the price of non welded and non powdercoated brackets?

Last edited by PAShooter; 11-24-2011 at 01:59 AM.
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  #277  
Old 11-24-2011
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Originally Posted by BLK02 View Post
You guys with stock trucks/mild offroading would ride best with a 500lb spring, definately nothing more than 600.. The rest is down to valving
Hmm...that's the first I've heard anything that low.

But I guess if someone isn't going for much off-roading it could make sense, but I would still be concerned about sagging over time.

Almost everyone that I found running this setup has used 750's. Including the coilover conversion "kit" that was offered from ORW. I also think the RCD lift kit used 750's and people have said it sagged over time. My dealer got all the info from my truck (weight, usage etc) and also recommended 750's.

Sounds like each person will just have to play around with it some and see what's best for each application whether it's just for ride comfort (lower rate) or offroad usage (higher rate).


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Last edited by logan03CO; 11-24-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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  #278  
Old 11-25-2011
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So do we have enough orders for a run yet? I am getting antsy about this lol

Also what valving did you run? I really dont know what to set mine to.
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  #279  
Old 11-25-2011
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Yes, we're good. I'm running 10 sets right now, and half of them are already taken.

As for valving, I'm running about 2/3 of the way up on mine. Once I set it to the ride height I want, I might drop it down slightly. I'm also starting to think I might switch back to the 12" springs. LOL. I may not be able to get the full TB crank height out of the 10" ones. We'll see how it goes.
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  #280  
Old 11-25-2011
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I was thinking the same about the 10s just from some measurements I took.
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  #281  
Old 11-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAShooter
What would be the price of non welded and non powdercoated brackets?
Let me give this a little consideration. I'm not sure I want to do this. Some of the holes don't get drilled until after the assembly to make sure everything lines up properly. I'll let you know when the stock gets in.
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  #282  
Old 11-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuck15 View Post
Also what valving did you run? I really dont know what to set mine to.
Maybe the Strange Engineering coilover's are different from other coilovers Iím familiar with (EDIT: Looks like some Strange Engineering CO's have an "external ****" to adjust the "firmness of ride" - See below for another edit). I did my research on mainly Bilstein, King and Fox brands. But when I mention valving I'm talking about using internal shim packs to control the rebound and compression rates. All this is setup when the shock is first built and tuned for the customer, and with Fox coilovers (as well as the others I listed) it can be modified because it's all rebuildable. See below for additional information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ME00Stepside View Post
As for valving, I'm running about 2/3 of the way up on mine. Once I set it to the ride height I want, I might drop it down slightly.
Now, if youíre talking about adjusting the collar's on the coilover...I think the term youíre looking for is setting the spring preload not adjusting the valving. But like I said, maybe the brand youíre using is different somehow (EDIT: Looks like some Strange Engineering CO's have an "external ****" to adjust the "firmness of ride". I'm now guessing this is what youíre talking about. This is definitely not a normal feature provided by the standard "performance off-road" coilover manufacturers I researched)


Some info I have gathered from various websites during my research (May help others):

Valving numbers vary by brand:
  • Bilstein uses xxx/xx. The xxx is the compression damping and xx is the rebound damping, both in Newton Meters per Second.
  • King uses shim thicknesses. For example, the compression stack might be all .010Ē Shims and the rebound stack might be .012Ē shim thicknesses.
  • Fox uses percentages. For example 50/70, where 50 means 50% of the available compression damping and 70 means 70% of the available rebound damping.

"Stolen" from Pirate 4x4:
"The shims, discs, or washers, come in different diameters and thicknesses. A particular combination of discs is called a valve stack or shim stack. As the shock strokes through the oil, depending on the direction of travel, the oil passes through the appropriate orifices and then reaches the shim stack. The shim stack must then flex and "open" to allow the oil to pass out the other side of the orifices in the piston. By varying the number, diameter, and thickness of the discs in the shim stack, the pressure at which the stack flexes and opens to allow oil to pass is varied, and thus the shock damping is varied."

That's why I have mentioned that if the place youíre buying your coilovers from, donít ask you about your vehicle and it's usage, or they donít offer free custom valving...donít buy them from them!

My guy asked about how my truck would be used (% on road versus off road, type of vehicle etc). Since I'm buying Fox brand coilovers I mentioned the 70/50 used in a few other threads, but due to my truck being on road for 60% of the time, he recommended I modify it to a 70/65, thus raising the rebound damping to "slow it down a bit when it tries to unload from being compressed".


Some great technical coilover information as well as a complete Fox coilover teardown and rebuild can be found here:

Coilover "Bible" Part #1: http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/
Coilover "Bible" Part #2: http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_2/


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Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 08:09 AM.
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  #283  
Old 11-25-2011
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yeah thats what I am talking about as well. Being an on road truck I was thinking more of a 70/40? just cause all I really see are pot holes
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  #284  
Old 11-25-2011
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I understand what you\'re talking about. I have single adjustable shocks (adjust overall dampening). The Strange can also be ordered in dual adjustable configuration (compression and rebound damping adjust separately). They can be revalved if you need them to be higher dampening, but the stock valving will handle my needs. You will need to have a higher dampening range with a higher spring rate.

Whatever the shocks you get, you want to let them know the spring rate, and your application. The shop or manufacturer will be able to set the shocks up for you.


Interested in a coilover conversion? click here.

Last edited by ME00Stepside; 11-25-2011 at 08:10 AM.
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  #285  
Old 11-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuck15 View Post
yeah thats what I am talking about as well. Being an on road truck I was thinking more of a 70/40? just cause all I really see are pot holes
I'll assume you’re talking Fox brand coilovers now, since you used their ratio style when it comes to valving spec's:

In no expert (and far from it!), but based on the adjustments made to mine (used at least 60% on standard paved roads), I think you may want to go with a higher denominator percentage (aka: raise the rebound damping percentage).

But if you’re buying Fox coilovers...Any "real" dealers will give you tons of advice as well (and BETTER advice). I wouldn't buy my Fox brand coilovers from an online "shopping cart" without having them customized.

I was nervous about picking a valving setup on my own...but then once I just called my dealer and talked with them, I was "at peace" because this is what they do for a living...and it wasn't a big deal, they asked me a series of questions to clear it all up, and actually provided the recommendation.


I bought my Fox stuff from here (Via phone & personal email..not his website "checkout"): http://downsouthmotorsports.com/

I was able to talk directly with the owner Sonny. He was a great help and provided tons of suggestions and REAL expert knowledge (But he's a very busy guy!). Just do a Google search on him and his company, and you will find nothing but great stories about him helping the performance off-road community.


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Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 08:58 AM.
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  #286  
Old 11-25-2011
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Well I am probably getting Strange coilovers. I can buy them and then do the work here. I am in the middle of dirt track racing land so there are TONS of shops who can set up some coil overs seeing as how thats what they all run. To be honest ive got a tad bit of experience when it comes to setting them up as far as spring rates and preload on the spring. But we never touched valving and it would be way different for a race car than a ranger

I just surfed that site. Prices arent to bad on fox (only reason I was going to use stange in the first place). I may search around but give this place an email with what I am doing and see what they can do for me


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  #287  
Old 11-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuck15 View Post
Well I am probably getting Strange coilovers.
Well if that's the case...the number system you & I talked about (70/40 or 70/65) won't mean anything when it comes to the Strange Engineering setup's as each manufacturer logs them differently and have different total available shim packs/options (I listed a few labeling variations by brand previously). Or, in the case of Strange...they have ***** that can adjust different things on the vehicle depending on the coilover being a single or double setup (like ME00Stepside said).

Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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  #288  
Old 11-25-2011
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So Fox has to be set by a shop and Strange I can just twist a **** if I dont like how its doing?

pardon the slight idiot tone of that question. I am just processing a lot of coil over info right now
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  #289  
Old 11-25-2011
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Originally Posted by kanuck15 View Post
So Fox has to be set by a shop and Strange I can just twist a **** if I dont like how its doing?
Yeah basically, but I don't think they are "equal" products given the same usage.

I haven't found how much the little ***** adjust things...like what it actually corresponds too (In hard numbers or even percentages – but I haven’t done much research on their products either). But according to the catalog on their website (http://www.strangeengineering.net/) the single adjustable version changes the "precise rebound settings". And the double adjustable version allows changes to the compression as well. Again...no real % type numbers listed where I looked.


Looks like Strange Engineering is a little more "home user" friendly...if you don't want (or need) what most people refer to as a "premium performance" on-road AND off-road product like Fox, King etc.

Also looks like a fair amount of custom car chassis builders and/or "street enthusiasts" use Strange Engineering products and off-roaders & desert racers use Fox, King etc.


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Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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  #290  
Old 11-25-2011
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Well my truck will see DD use and some forestry road use. Nothing spectacular but enough I want it to ride better. It seems like the T bar set up is just to jarring for my tastes. there is no reason my 1/4 ton truck should ride like my 1 ton truck (btw if this goes well it will be getting coil overs)
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  #291  
Old 11-25-2011
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The Fox coilovers are also adjustable like the Strange (most coilovers are like this), but either of them has a certain range based on the valving setup from the shop. As I mentioned before, the range you have them set for largely depends on the spring rate you'll be using. Think of the **** as the fine tuning, and the shim or washer packs as the application setting.

The Strange Engineering products are, in fact, largely used by street rodders, but their products are high quality, and a properly valved coilover will work well in either setting. I've been a car guy for a long time, so I'm very familiar with Strange, and I trust their products. They are heavily used on high-horsepower drag cars, so their stuff isn't by any means a lighter duty.

The King and Fox coilovers are definitely used heavily on off-road trucks. There are other companies as well, but you have to make sure that you either research the specs yourself, or talk to the place you're buying them from to make sure you're getting something that will work properly for you.

I'm not going to tell anyone which product I think they should buy, but I will say that any of these products will do, as long as you make sure you have them set up properly for your use. Consider your length, travel, spring rate, and valving, then make your choice, and let the store know exactly what you're doing so they can help you set them up properly.


Interested in a coilover conversion? click here.
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  #292  
Old 11-25-2011
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What I meant about feeling they are not "equal products" given the same usage is that is pretty obvious that the Strange products are targeted and tested for the pavement crowd...and Fox and/or King is targeted and tested for the off-road crowd.

When's the last time a main stream lift-kit or long-travel setup for a truck has been offered using Strange products? When's the last time a handling/track package for a car has been offered using Fox or King branded products? Not very often…

It's clear that each of the above companies do have a different "main usage". Therefore by default, over the years each company received different customer feedback & real-world testing based on its customers specific usage. Then subsequently they have each evolved even further and tailored their products in a specific direction to further capture their respective market segment (AKA - They listen to their customers specific needs in order to get even more "like-minded" customers). But yes, at the end of the day a properly setup coilover is a properly setup coilover IF everything else is equal.

That being said, my default preference is to rely upon the specific company that specializes in the exact same market segment I'm going to be using the actual product in, because I believe they have targeted their efforts for a specific function, as well as tested and received feedback in the exact same circumstances and/or conditions as I will be using it in.

Probably the same reason most people call a pair of straight-jaw adjustable pliers a “Pair of Channel-Lock’s”. Other companies probably make equal products to the Channel-Lock brand, but for its usage, and market “nitch”…the other companies are not the prime mover as many people swear by the default standard because it’s what they are used to as well as it's already been proven and tested for its exact usage (AKA - you’re not the guinea pig). Same goes for Snap-on, MAC etc.

As I have said it numerous time before as well – I 100% agree that each and every person needs to evaluate the planned usage and direction of their truck...do their own research...and consult the manufacturers or factory-trained and authorized dealers (not just some online "store" trying to make another generic sale) to assist them in setting everything up the best way for them.

But I think it's also prudent to keep this in mind: I've never heard a manufacturer say anything bad about their own product...so other large groups of people using a certain product in the exact same function as you plan on using it...does come into play.

AKA - For something like this...One size does NOT fit all.


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Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 04:23 PM.
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  #293  
Old 11-25-2011
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Ha ha. Quite a little novel there, but I pretty much agree with you.

I will say, though, that I'm quite happy with mine so far. Again, I'm not doing heavy off-roading, so anyone taking my assessment needs to keep this in mind. For a DD that may do some light trails for fishing, hunting, or camping, it's a good set up, and the price is right.
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  #294  
Old 11-25-2011
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I am slightly torn now. The strange COs would work fine. But there is a little bit of pride in saying my 1000 dollar ranger has 500 dollars worth of fox shocks in the front lol
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^^^ LOL.
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Old 11-25-2011
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By the way, QA1 makes inexpensive, decent coilovers, and I believe someone on here has used them for a conversion on their truck before.
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  #297  
Old 11-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuck15 View Post
But there is a little bit of pride in saying my 1000 dollar ranger has 500 dollars worth of fox shocks in the front lol
lol nice! Should go down as the quote of the month!

EDIT: With the brackets & springs...I bet you will be way over the $500! Without my brackets (or limit straps etc) I was damn near $700 just for Fox CO's & Eibach springs..but I opted for some "shiney" upgrades along the way as well. Overall, I think I'm in it about $1,100 to 1,200 give or take.

Last edited by logan03CO; 11-25-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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  #298  
Old 11-25-2011
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It really isnt a 1000 dollar truck, I just got an amazing deal for it. The 4x4 didnt work and it didnt have reverse. So for 50 bucks I scored a 1354m T case. 80 bucks for AVM hubs. And 400 for a different transmission. Either way these CO brackets and the COs themselves will prolly be the most expensive part of this truck

yeah between brackets (261) COs (anywhere from 150 a piece to 225 depending) springs (50ish a piece) and then straps I will be pushing a grand

Last edited by kanuck15; 11-25-2011 at 06:45 PM. Reason: added stuff
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  #299  
Old 11-28-2011
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Any updates on production & shipment?
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Old 11-28-2011
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The stock should be in at the machine shop by now. I'll be stopping by tomorrow to see if he's started cutting the parts yet. Like I said a couple of pages back, I expect to be shipping by mid-late December. I'll try to get some progress pictures along the way. I know you guys are anxious for these.
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