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2.9L & 3.0L V6 Tech General discussion of 2.9L and 3.0L V6 Ford Ranger engines.

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  #1  
Old 10-01-2008
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3.0 Hp

How much can horse power/efficiency actually be increased with mods like.......

Electric fan, alum pulleys, under drive, maf mods, ignition upgrades, cat back.. etc
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2008
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You can send me the money you would pay on that stuff, and you will get the same performance increase!!! Don't throw your money away!

For significant HP increase, you have to spend big $$$ for the following:

1) Go to forced induction

2) Increase displacement

3) Increase compression, and change cam parameters
NOTE: with the cam parameters you have two choices:
a) Increase low-end torque, loose high end HP
b) Increase high end HP, loose low-end torque
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  #3  
Old 10-01-2008
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IMO, spend your money on a set of gears or smaller tires. Smaller tires being the cheaper route for us 4wd, unless you really need ground clearance. Plus the gain in braking and handling will amaze you. 235/75/15's w/ 4.10's = effective 4.33. Woke mine right up.

UDP would be second. I won't do the E-fan.
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  #4  
Old 10-01-2008
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With all my mods I probably have 165 hp tops, Its never been on a dyno, but from sources the pullies and programmer have shown to put out at least 10hp each, the rest i havent the slightest clue.
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  #5  
Old 10-01-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
You can send me the money you would pay on that stuff, and you will get the same performance increase!!! Don't throw your money away!

8Hp gain across the rpm range for a 3.0 underdrive pulley = $100 = $12.50 per added HP.

Off the shelf boost is $3,000.00 for a gain of 60? That adds up to $50 per additional HP.

That is figuring the last selling price of the whipple supercharger before it was discontinued. Face value for face value if you will.

An Xcal tuner. Assuming $400 for 8 HP= $50 per additional HP. they generally run less money and the HP gain is probably higher. there will be some sacrifices in higher octane gas to get the better gains but the same applies for boost.

You are right in one respect. You stated "significant" gain. I would suspect that a lot of guys here are focused on the following:

"recover the lost momentum from offroading mods"

I don't know if your statement fits in the posters question. It's an assumption on your part or a platform to educate everyone on the forum. I'm using the same forum to show how these products can be worthy in the right circumstances.

For those that fit into my category the two mods I mentioned will generally do that. In my case- with the only evidence I have being 1/4 mile times- I was able to lift my truck 3" and install 32" tires and not lose a tenth of a second in 1/4 mile times. that is with a 4.0 engine. 4wd extended cab 3.0's offer more of an urgency to compensate from offroad mods since the starting HP is lower.

Another factor is available dollars. $100 is much easier achieved than $3000. if it helps to recover the extra weight of larger tires, it is worthy.

The tuner does double duty in correcting the odometer. For those that have increased their tires size, this must be calculated into the expense.

Last edited by graniteguy; 10-01-2008 at 11:00 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-01-2008
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Originally Posted by graniteguy View Post
8Hp gain across the rpm range for a 3.0 underdrive pulley = $100 = $12.50 per added HP.

Off the shelf boost is $3,000.00 for a gain of 60? That adds up to $50 per additional HP.

That is figuring the last selling price of the whipple supercharger before it was discontinued. Face value for face value if you will.

An Xcal tuner. Assuming $400 for 8 HP= $50 per additional HP. they generally run less money and the HP gain is probably higher. there will be some sacrifices in higher octane gas to get the better gains but the same applies for boost.

You are right in one respect. You stated "significant" gain. I would suspect that a lot of guys here are focused on the following:

"recover the lost momentum from offroading mods"

I don't know if your statement fits in the posters question. It's an assumption on your part or a platform to educate everyone on the forum. I'm using the same forum to show how these products can be worthy in the right circumstances.

For those that fit into my category the two mods I mentioned will generally do that. In my case- with the only evidence I have being 1/4 mile times- I was able to lift my truck 3" and install 32" tires and not lose a tenth of a second in 1/4 mile times. that is with a 4.0 engine. 4wd extended cab 3.0's offer more of an urgency to compensate from offroad mods since the starting HP is lower.

Another factor is available dollars. $100 is much easier achieved than $3000. if it helps to recover the extra weight of larger tires, it is worthy.

The tuner does double duty in correcting the odometer. For those that have increased their tires size, this must be calculated into the expense.

I wouldn't expect anything less from somebody selling the stuff!!

Now, lets see some independent test data!!

Here is some independent test data of HP vs temp, and assuming the 3.0L has 150HP, similar gains can be seen by dropping the ambient temp by 40 degrees:


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  #7  
Old 10-01-2008
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I'm reading and learning guy's, I appreciate the input....It appears there are as many schools of thought as the are after market parts.
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  #8  
Old 10-01-2008
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Mods will give you a gain in power and mpg but it won't be much. Takeda is known as the OEM **** on the forum so he will always say OEM is the best when it isn't.
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  #9  
Old 10-01-2008
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I wouldn't expect anything less from somebody selling the stuff!!
You wouldn't expect honesty from me? I don't understand. What part of my claims are unreasonable or invalid?
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Old 10-01-2008
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You wouldn't expect honesty from me? I don't understand. What part of my claims are unreasonable or invalid?
Wayne has nothing to gain by lying. He may make a quick sale by lying, but killing a reputation isnt worth it.
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  #11  
Old 10-01-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post

Here is some independent test data of HP vs temp, and assuming the 3.0L has 150HP, similar gains can be seen by dropping the ambient temp by 40 degrees:
"similar gains can be seen by dropping the ambient temp by 40 degrees". How do you propose to get a 40 degree drop in air temps at a cost that is less than the pulley? Is the pulley what you are comparing this with by stating similar gains?


One idea is an intercooler (kind of odd to have an intercooler without a turbo). The older kids would probably pick on him.

Another idea is a fuel chiller. Cool the fuel with nitrous, CO2 or Ice cubes. The cooler fuel would condense the air, allowing more to come in. I would suspect that the cost would eventual get to $100 or more from the continuing cost of the chiller device (even ice cubes have a cost).

One thing about the pulley is the gain is near constant- from acceleration to redline. One thing about air temps to the intake is it gets significantly closer to actual air temps as the truck is moving. Anyone with a Scan gauge II can get that data. (I can SELL you one. lol.)If you are proposing a system to cool the air with no added materials (nitrous, co2, ice), it can not cool lower than actual air temps.

In that case, your real world gain will be limited from 0 to 45 MPH. At that point you should be getting close to actual air temps. That can almost make your statement as outlandish as, say, a "fill in the blank mod" system that promotes "up to 20 HP". You and me know that the 20 is probably less if anything at all, and whatever gain they're promoting may be limited to a spefic rpm range. 20HP from 2,000 - 2,200 rpm is not much of a gain. The same could be said for the magic air temp lowering device that costs less than a pulley, but will diminish as the MPH increases, but yet is still less than $100 (pulley). If the gain is only from 0 to 45 MPH, you can't specify a specific HP increase as your chart would indicate. HP will go down as MPH goes up. I am claiming a gain from idle to redline, you're not (assuming no added input of nitrous, etc). It doesn't compare, nor does it compute.

I am a simple man Bob. How do you make 100 degree air turn to 60 degree air without outside assistance?

Last edited by graniteguy; 10-01-2008 at 02:46 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2008
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The funny thing about this discussion is I looked at making a fuel chiller. In simple terms it was basically a fuel line with small copper wire wrapped around it. When a person purged their nitrous it would spiral around the tube and chill the fuel.

The fuel would be colder and when sprayed into the intake it would cool the surrounding air and condense it. (colder air)

The sales would be limited to a select few nitrous users and was almost overkill since the nitrous itself would cool the air.

I have since seen these in the marketplace. There is also one that holds cold ice water. Picture a bucket of ice water with the fuel lines coiled in the bucket. They are for sale in the marketplace.

in todays cars, the gas is being sprayed closer and closer to the combustion chamber to do much good. Ford will be releasing direct injection soon. The fuel will no longer travel through an intake manifold if I understand it correctly.
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2008
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There are c02 fuel coolers out there: http://www.designengineering.com/pro...asp?m=sp&pid=3

I'm not a fan of Nitrous would run a Co2 system and finish it at an intercooler sprayer if I had a turbo.
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graniteguy View Post
"similar gains can be seen by dropping the ambient temp by 40 degrees". How do you propose to get a 40 degree drop in air temps at a cost that is less than the pulley? Is the pulley what you are comparing this with by stating similar gains?


One idea is an intercooler (kind of odd to have an intercooler without a turbo). The older kids would probably pick on him.

Another idea is a fuel chiller. Cool the fuel with nitrous, CO2 or Ice cubes. The cooler fuel would condense the air, allowing more to come in. I would suspect that the cost would eventual get to $100 or more from the continuing cost of the chiller device (even ice cubes have a cost).

One thing about the pulley is the gain is near constant- from acceleration to redline. One thing about air temps to the intake is it gets significantly closer to actual air temps as the truck is moving. Anyone with a Scan gauge II can get that data. (I can SELL you one. lol.)If you are proposing a system to cool the air with no added materials (nitrous, co2, ice), it can not cool lower than actual air temps.

In that case, your real world gain will be limited from 0 to 45 MPH. At that point you should be getting close to actual air temps. That can almost make your statement as outlandish as, say, a "fill in the blank mod" system that promotes "up to 20 HP". You and me know that the 20 is probably less if anything at all, and whatever gain they're promoting may be limited to a spefic rpm range. 20HP from 2,000 - 2,200 rpm is not much of a gain. The same could be said for the magic air temp lowering device that costs less than a pulley, but will diminish as the MPH increases, but yet is still less than $100 (pulley). If the gain is only from 0 to 45 MPH, you can't specify a specific HP increase as your chart would indicate. HP will go down as MPH goes up. I am claiming a gain from idle to redline, you're not (assuming no added input of nitrous, etc). It doesn't compare, nor does it compute.

I am a simple man Bob. How do you make 100 degree air turn to 60 degree air without outside assistance?
Comes free with nature.....it's called the winter season!!

The UDPs are a joke, do you realize the alternator will put more of a load on the engine by trying to keep the proper voltage on the battery, by increasing the field current, when it's turning too slow?

UDP's are known to cause problems, as can be seen in these links:

http://www.camaroforums.com/archive/...s-22277-1.html


http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...-problems.html


http://audi.cats.lv/page/modules.php...howpage&pid=10




And last, but not least, UDPs are known to void warranties, as you can see from this statement from Joe Bradley, manager of Ford's Warranty Analysis dept.:


By Joe Bradley, Manager of Ford's Warranty Analysis department

"As you might expect from the company that formed SVT, the Ford Motor Company has many employees who are true performance enthusiasts -- folks who love and care for their personal high-performance vehicles as much as or more than the next guy or gal. Many of us, in fact, are true "weekend warriors" who can be found at the local drag strip or road course on Saturdays and Sundays, and tinkering under the hood during weekday evenings getting ready for the next event. As automotive enthusiasts, we certainly can appreciate performance machinery.

That said, as Ford employees we all want to do the right thing for our customers as well as for the Ford Motor Company. That is precisely why it is important to have a concise, easy-to-understand policy with regard to Ford warranty administration. For vehicles that are not modified, the Ford warranty policy is clear – the company backs its products within the guidelines of the new vehicle limited warranty, which is designed to protect the customer from defects in factory workmanship and/or material.

However, in the case of vehicles that have been modified, one needs to understand that the modifications may affect warranty coverage. This is simply because any damage or failure of new vehicle components or systems that was caused by modifications to the vehicle are not defects in "factory supplied" workmanship or material.

To illustrate this point, let's consider a small sample of vehicle modifications and see how they might affect factory components or systems: When it comes to changing the factory engine drive pulleys, there are some powertrain system and component concerns that deserve consideration. One would be any electrical and/or charging system problems that arise because of reduced alternator operating speed caused by the installation of underdrive pulleys. After all, the performance and serviceability of many system components are based on certain design parameters that include operating speed. The same goes for problems stemming from higher cooling system temperatures because of reduced water pump flow caused by the installation of underdrive pulleys. Increased underhood temperatures caused by owner-induced changes to a factory design-specification part can have a detrimental effect on any number of powertrain components or systems – some that may have long-range implications. And things can get even more serious when supercharger pulley changes are made, including head gasket leaks and piston and connecting rod failures. Also possible is piston damage due to detonation from improper air/fuel and timing modifications.

The installation of any non-factory forced induction system can also cause problems. Base engines modified with aftermarket superchargers, turbochargers or nitrous oxide injection systems may indeed bring about some power gains, but they can cause piston, connecting rod and/or crankshaft failures as well.

Other parts of a vehicle's factory-spec drivetrain are also susceptible to damage when engine torque and horsepower is increased. Performance chips or other power-enhancing devices increase torque loads on the driveline and can force failure of the transmission and/or rear axle. The latter problem can be especially true when owners switch to wider tires or racing slicks in an effort to increase traction. Even non "go-fast" aftermarket accessories such as remote starters, alarms, supplementary gauges and audio equipment can cause electrical system service problems if they are installed incorrectly or have improper connections.

When it comes to fairly evaluating the possibility of a warranty denial, there's one simple rule of thumb to follow: Although the installation of non-Ford parts and aftermarket modifications, by themselves, will not void the Ford New Vehicle Limited Warranty, failures that result from these parts and/or modifications may result in a denial of warranty coverage for such failures or damage.

The bottom line is, Ford Motor Company wants each of its owners to enjoy their product to the fullest extent – and that includes performance vehicles. But dealer service technicians have seen, and continue to see, that modifications may cause the original design to fail. The addition of aftermarket parts is a risk that each and every vehicle owner must evaluate for themselves. All that's needed is a reasonable dose of common sense. When and if you modify your vehicle, please consider whether the modification may cause another component to fail – and if it does, recognize that warranty coverage for that failure or damage will likely be denied. "
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2008
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Yes UDP's slow down the alternator that's why there a a different alternator pulley available.

Also the warranty is only voided if the aftermarket part caused the failure. I have been to the dealer many times because the OEM parts have failed and my warranty was never voided because of my aftermarket parts..

I don't know how you can join a forum for modding Rangers and expect anyone to listen to you.

Last edited by whippersnapper02; 10-01-2008 at 08:11 PM.
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2008
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Yeah honestly the 3.0 will never be a powerful motor.. And putting money into it is like trying to polish a turd from what many people have told me. No offense or anything, but i think you'd be better off making the appearance better looking spending all that money. and just drive it. Those engines are reliable.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Comes free with nature.....it's called the winter season!!

The UDPs are a joke, do you realize the alternator will put more of a load on the engine by trying to keep the proper voltage on the battery, by increasing the field current, when it's turning too slow?
UDP's CAN be a joke. It depends on the application.

I can come up with underdive pulley problems without looking at your links. A 1.9 liter saturn has a built in harmonic balancer with the stock pulley. The aftermarket underdrive pulley skips the harmonic balancer. I wouldn't buy it. I probably bought every other bolt on for it though. I got it from a 16.4 1/4 mile time to a 14.79 1/4 mile time. pretty impressive if you ask me.

On the electrical issue you could give me a little credit. NO ONE had an overdrive alternator pulley. Underdog MADE an overdrive alternator pulley. Underdrive crank + Overdrive alt= a basic wash. No gain, no loss from the electrical side. Do "I" think it is necessary- NO. There was enough concern from customers that i made them.


Have you ever noticed that EVERYONE that sells 3.0 pulleys advertises 12-16 HP, yet I state 8? that should be a little refreshing to see. I guess that is the untruthfull slant I give to things. I specify the gain cause i dyno'd the gain.
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Old 10-01-2008
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I've looked at your links and all are related to electrical issues. I've responded with that already so there is no need to rehash it. I also gave examples you didn't supply on UDP's GONE BAD.

The water issue is easily debunked with a scan gauge II. I think this is where you say a scan gaugeII is not as accurate as the idiot sweeping needle gauge that comes stock from the factory. Lets all trust the sweeping needle.

I'm trying to find your logic on why UDP's are a joke and was hoping your links would give me some insite. It didn;t.
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2008
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Graig, on the ignition- a properly tuned ignition will gain 1-3 HP at most. Tuning the ignition is a long process. It involves widening gaps a little at a time until you get missfires, then back the gaps down. You then fight it because the gaps tend to widen as the miles increase.

Any gains past the 1-3 HP would be gaining back lost HP from old components.

Crossthread a spark plug like i did and you will not want to mess with these components until needed. If you swap wires and plugs about every 50,000 miles you should keep the system fresh. Wires may last longer but it is simpler to change them at the same time. If you don't, you will probably pull a plug wire from the boot while removing it. just plan for it.

I would probably swap coil packs at 100,000 miles. I have no basis for this on WHY the 100,000 miles. It just seems like a good time.

I took one weekend to swap my plugs on 3 of my 3.0's. It turned out good. one was about 60,000 miles, one at 70,000 miles and one at 90,000 miles. the 60,000 plugs were still close to factory gaps. The 70,000 were probably at .050- .060, the 90,000 mile truck was at .070 - .090. Thats why I plan on the 50,000 mile swap.
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Old 10-02-2008
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on the electric fan- it will add hp/mph in the same way an underdrive pulley adds it. It's giving back HP that was used to spin the fan and send it into the transmission. It won;t be consistent like the pulleys. The stock fan can turn itself on and off. The highest temps are usually at idle so that is when the stock fan is locked in and spinning the most. Cruising at 70 MPH the stock fan is probably not locked in so it's not saving as much energy.

The main concern is proper cfm of the unit and reliability. Historically, car manufacturers would install electric fans on fwd vehicles. Why- cause the engines are installed sideways so the belt drive components are not facing the radiator. It physically couldn't be done. The end result is the electric fan that doesn't need a belt drive. In todays world you will see them installed from the factory on RWD platforms (corvette as an example). This should convince people the longevity is there and it is worthwhile to do it. Many guys here are using a taurus e-fan to get the OEM reliabilty and proper air flow. There are aftermarket fans that have proved reliable and others that have not.

My opinon- I have no problems with a reliable and good flowing unit. My interpretation of that is a metal blade, or a plastic blade that has a continuous plastic ring connecting all the blades. Having equal number of blades is a benefit but if the other conditions are met, it's not a big deal.

So odd number blades that are not connected are bad. Why? You hit some water and one blade will break off. This creates such an imbalance that the whole truck will shake. Not a good thing. If it was even numbered blades you could break off the oppsite blade to rebalance it. It will get you home.

If you do it, I would encourage you to keep the stock fan in the truck. It's 5 minutes to put it on in case you "need" it. Having an LED light that shows the unit is running is a good idea also. I had a fuse blow from a water incident a few years ago(the fan didn't meet my new criteria). I ran for a few days without the fan running. It did fine since I was driving long runs- 70 mph for 60 miles one way. The temps didn't miss a beat. I got stuck in downtown Austin in stop and go traffic and thats when the blown fuse revealed itself as the truck overheated.


Another are of concern is the mounting. Aftermarket fans use a push- thru pin that holds it to the radiator. People get concerned with the plastic pins either breaking or busting the radiator. I'm not concerned with it myself.


An interesting side note- while the debate wages on about electric fans, the car manufacturers have gone a step further and added electrical power steering instead of belt driven. That tells me the overall gain is worth the engineering time/money it takes to develop the products. Its either issues of fitting the belt driven power steering under the hood, or some added MPG with the system that is causing this change. In either situation, the OEMS are saying these products are good for 36-100,000 miles depending on their posted warranty. With the increase in hybrid vehicles, electric powered a/c is gonna start showing itself in cars soon if it hasn't started yet.

Last edited by graniteguy; 10-02-2008 at 10:58 AM.
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  #21  
Old 10-02-2008
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I have some things in the works and have started my mods, I should be complete by Saturday. Good or bad the out come will tell, I have built a lot of stuff over the years. Most where not OEM upgrades but after market items. The form, fit, function and reliability come the seat of the pants dyno and daily operation. I my own muddled mind I try to maximize the efficiency of the overall function while increasing output power.

I work with what I have from unpolished turd to polished diamond

Thanks for all the replies and information, I respect each individuals input.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2008
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Hmm its a 3.0 your hp will ALWAYS suck.
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2008
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Well, I've been playing with it over the past few days and have "wasted money as some would say" but the results have been very good.

My standards for judging improvement is the seat of the pants dyno, nothing technical.

Mods.

SD coil
8MM wires
Plat +4 Bosh
Black Magic Electric fan +modified install+ and can be controlled from the cab
99 MAF body modified, enlarged and smoothed for better flow
K&N filter with modified intake box
Under drive / replaced all pulleys with alum except power steering and a/c
modified tb...soon BBK1548 or 3.8
red top
IAT mod
Removed the slack out of the throttle cable <different approach>
Port matched intake (will space later) matched and cleaned tb to spacer/intake
Seafoam engine cleaning
Mobil 1
Cat back already on truck



My cost was around $600 and took about 16 hours....

Was the time/money/effort worth what I gained..........Yes
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2008
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Originally Posted by oldfart View Post

Was the time/money/effort worth what I gained..........Yes
good to hear!

what say you Bob? lol
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2008
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Originally Posted by graniteguy View Post
I've looked at your links and all are related to electrical issues. I've responded with that already so there is no need to rehash it. I also gave examples you didn't supply on UDP's GONE BAD.

The water issue is easily debunked with a scan gauge II. I think this is where you say a scan gaugeII is not as accurate as the idiot sweeping needle gauge that comes stock from the factory. Lets all trust the sweeping needle.

I'm trying to find your logic on why UDP's are a joke and was hoping your links would give me some insite. It didn;t.
What is the water issue about?
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