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  #1  
Old 06-14-2005
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Aftermarket Air Filter Info

Ok, so i bought a Fram Air Hog for my truck because i used one in the 'Converti-Cavy' and it was awesome. It did pretty good in the Ranger. So much so that i HAD all intentions of keeping it. That is until i went back to kentucky and my dad and i were sitting around talking about what all i had done to the truck and what i had planned. Well as soon as i told him what filter i had he told me that if i didn't take it out my warranty was gonna end up being voided. Even worse my motor would end up being shot before it rolled 100k.

Well i had to ask why, so he began to explain. Air filters like fram, k&n, and such have the technology and ability to design an awesome filter media. Granted, but they lack the knowledge of how to design a whole filter. What i mean is that they don't truly design an entire filter. They forget about the seal that has to happen on the airbox. They design the rubber seal area to be larger, which some would think that would create a greater seal area. WRONG! the latches on most airboxes don't have enough tension to fully compress the seal area enough. Thereby leaving a gap between the upper and lower airbox assembly.

I know this to be true because i took the truck 4-wheeling not long ago and when i came home i was cleaning the engine and noticed that when i sprayed around the airbox an unusual amount of dirt came out. So i pulled the lid and filter and lo-and-behold, a good amount of dirt and mud in the upper and lower halfs of the air box. Instant warranty voider!!!! not to mention that stuff can and will end up in the intake manifold.

So buyer be aware!!!!

Edit: yes i know that if you offroad you will get dirt and water and such in the bottom of the airbox. But a good filter and a good seal will not allow dirt and mud to get to the top of the airbox, unless you have submerged your engine...which i haven't, yet!!!

Last edited by Sad_Savant; 06-16-2005 at 11:39 AM.
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  #2  
Old 06-14-2005
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im sticking with my paper filter.
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2005
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well.. ill just sue k&n for selling a falty filter that has been in every vehicle my family has owned for the past 10 years...
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  #4  
Old 06-14-2005
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i use a cone filter on both my trucks, dont have that seal problem
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx98ranger
well.. ill just sue k&n for selling a falty filter that has been in every vehicle my family has owned for the past 10 years...
Ok this is mostly going to apply to late model vehicles that make an engine completely dependent on each system involved through the PCM.
Lamen's terms = 00 +

i'm not asking you to believe me though. But if you think i'm full of it, go to a dealership and talk to any TECH, not some shop-boy, a real ASE tech and see what they tell you. Still don't believe it, take your truck through a few mudholes and really splash around, go home and look in the bottom of your airbox.
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  #6  
Old 06-15-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gay-briel
i use a cone filter on both my trucks, dont have that seal problem
lol...yeah i don't think the seal problem will apply with yours man....just watch for a road grime builup on your intake tube and around your MAF sensor...those are good signs that your engine is sucking stuff up into the intake manifold.
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad_Savant
lol...yeah i don't think the seal problem will apply with yours man....just watch for a road grime builup on your intake tube and around your MAF sensor...those are good signs that your engine is sucking stuff up into the intake manifold.

yeah, i know what you mean


Ive heard bad stories from people with cone filters, but im finding out for myself if i like them or not
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gay-briel
yeah, i know what you mean


Ive heard bad stories from people with cone filters, but im finding out for myself if i like them or not
i can agree with that...what better experience than first hand...
i have to kinda sit back and talk with my dad first then get stories from other owners...my dad pulled alot of strings to set up the deal on my truck so i have to respect him and the things he's done to help me get it...
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2005
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What a load of ***... Your wack... If theres stuff in the BOTTOM of your airbox its coming in through the intake tube, how retarded can you be? I've got a K&N and it seals just fine. Hell, I have K&N's in every vehicle in my driveway. I've got an 8 year old Dodge Ram thats had the same K&N for its entire 150,000 mile life. I guess the Northstar Cad in the driveway with OVER 300K miles on it in the past 6 years with the SAME filter is going to blow its guts out next week since you broke the news of conspiracy to us all! Thanks alot for a post full of bull****...
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2005
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Rob, I've never used a gauze type filter like K&N. I've done a lot of research on them. People like them because they increase air flow thus improving engine performance. That's all fine and good but that's not proof. A lot of people have had them in vehicles for many years and hundred of miles with no problems. That too is good.
I've also heard a lot of people say they allow too much dirt into the engine. This makes sense to me because in order to allow more air you have to allow more dirt. They were originally for race engines if I understand correctly. This is perfect because they get broken down and rebuilt so often you could almost not run a filter at all. But for for personal use they, IN MY OPINION, allow too much dirt in.
I've posted a link to a site that tested 6 filter types and that test showed that the gauze filters let far more dirt in than paper. This has stopped me from buying K&N.
I decided tho that I wanted to test myself so I could put my money where my mouth is so I bought a used K&N from a friend. I'm going to install it and test the oil after 5000 with that, then 5000 with paper filter and compare the results. Those results to come later as I'm very lazy. :)

For now I agree they allow too much dirt in but I've never heard of a seal issue.



mod edit: keep the bull**** to yourself

Last edited by ScottG; 06-15-2005 at 09:02 PM.
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  #11  
Old 06-15-2005
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anyway, KN filters are a joke. on a MAF equiped vehicle they allow particles through small enough to contaminate the MAF sensor. easy fix, just clean it but it shouldnt be there to begin with.

the sealing problem OTOH, is new to me. i would suspect its more on the manufactor and how they tolerences on the air box is made than KN.

but ill stick to my good ol Fram paper filter.

oh and i am infact one of those auto techs u refering to.


mod edit: keep the bull**** to yourself

Last edited by ScottG; 06-15-2005 at 09:01 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2005
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i installed a k-n cold air intake with an cone fliter, thanks for all the input, you can wrap your filter with a sponge filtering mat,l this will let it breath and hold out the dirt.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2005
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Yea, its only a theoretical "what if" comparison though...
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2005
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alright, this called for moderation


now, keep this on subject, or else theres nothing stoping from closing it...

leave the name calling to one on one...

this is a topic about aftermarket filter, lets keep it civil
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2005
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Removed as per higher ups wanting

Last edited by optikal illushun; 06-15-2005 at 09:19 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-15-2005
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well... its got the exact same seal as the filter that came STOCK with my truck in 98. my dad bought this truck brand spankin new and the filter is the same size, and it seals exactly the same as stock. therefore the problem would be a ford motor company problem, therefore the problem will still be there in your truck. plus i take auto tech in high school with 2 ASE certified teachers who say the fact that i have a K&N fliter WILL make my engine run better, cleaner, and smoother. that filter has been in the truck for 66,000 miles of the 66,324 miles on the truck with absolutely no problems.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2005
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Quote:
plus i take auto tech in high school with 2 ASE certified teachers who say the fact that i have a K&N fliter WILL make my engine run better, cleaner, and smoother
im sorry but i have to disagree. all of my teachers (ASE master techs) said they arent worth it. one has his own successful drag car and the other has been rebuilding engines for 25 yrs.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3literbeater
What a load of ***... Your wack... If theres stuff in the BOTTOM of your airbox its coming in through the intake tube, how retarded can you be? I've got a K&N and it seals just fine. Hell, I have K&N's in every vehicle in my driveway. I've got an 8 year old Dodge Ram thats had the same K&N for its entire 150,000 mile life. I guess the Northstar Cad in the driveway with OVER 300K miles on it in the past 6 years with the SAME filter is going to blow its guts out next week since you broke the news of conspiracy to us all! Thanks alot for a post full of bull****...
ok dude, yeah if there is stuff in the bottom of my airbox it did come in from the intake tube. I should have clarified more. But, now pay close attention to this, i don't wanna lose you, if you put a vacuum over top of a penny on the floor and turn on the vacuum, what happens???? IT GETS SUCKED UP BY THE VACUUM!!!! WOW, HOW AMAZING SCIENCE IS!!! Do you honestly think that your filter stops 100% of particles??? do you think that it stops 95%???
2+2=4

now, about your dodge and caddy...go look at the technology level of the electronic engine management of them versus, for example my 02. It's like comparing an apple to an orange. The older "PCM's" had an extremely high tolerance to modification, whereas my 02 has little to none due to a term called "dependance." Judging by the rant you just gave off on me i'm sure you and your parents know this term well because i'm assuming you still live with them. As no grown man would get that torn up over an air filter conversation. Especially since this thread is technically an opinion piece as i have no certified documents declaring what i say to be true. All i have is roughly 75 years combined technical experience from the worlds of street cars/hot rods/off-roaders. but that doesn't really mean much i guess...since you seem to have it all under control and your 8 year old dodge has the same engine management system and air box that my 02 ranger has, right???

next time you wanna rebutt something of mine out in the open, remember one word for me, k, Civil...now if you wanna go off on some wild profane tangent, just PM me...saves you from being embarrassed publicly on the forum, saves our fellow members the discomfort of having to endure it, and it's just alot easier to deal with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mx98ranger
well... its got the exact same seal as the filter that came STOCK with my truck in 98. my dad bought this truck brand spankin new and the filter is the same size, and it seals exactly the same as stock. therefore the problem would be a ford motor company problem, therefore the problem will still be there in your truck. plus i take auto tech in high school with 2 ASE certified teachers who say the fact that i have a K&N fliter WILL make my engine run better, cleaner, and smoother. that filter has been in the truck for 66,000 miles of the 66,324 miles on the truck with absolutely no problems.
ok, to start off with this one, and i am completely mellow when i write this so there are no hidden undertones in my statement, no the seals are not the same. go to any automotive store and get them to pull 3 filters for your truck of different brands, i.e. Fram Air Hog, K&N, and Motorcraft. Look closely at the shape of the hump on the top of the seal. They all vary in size.

Now, i don't doubt your teachers are right. But as i said in my post this is mostly for 00 + vehicles. your 98 has a pretty high tolerance for modification, as far as what the engine management will allow. Ask your teachers to explain to you why that filter will help your truck run better and smoother though.

I can give you a reason right off the top of my head. It's a term called "Running Lean." Your trucks fuel map is hard programmed into the PCM. It's fine tuned as far as the Air/Fuel Ratio goes. By adding a high flow filter all you are doing is causing the computer to see more air, thereby REDUCING fuel to the engine, causing it to "Run Leaner." That's where your "performance" comes from. Now, if you have a chip/programmer and your fuel table has been altered to accept more air then yeah, those filters could truly be beneficial. But by just changing the filter your not gonna increase performance, your just cause the electronics to re-adjust themselves. Which is not something they like to do. Not without being reprogrammed.

That is especially true on my truck. Hell i had to re-program after changing my tire size.
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Old 06-16-2005
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sadsavant, i think u may have ur ideas twisted but its late and i need to ponder this.

as for the kid who said the KN will make his engine run smoother, how exactly will it? unless ur current filter is clogged a KN will do nothing. run cleaner? how, the KN doesnt filter as low of a micron of dirt as a good ol paper filter will. and run better? sure it may by letting a fraction of more air in, but at what cost?
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  #20  
Old 06-16-2005
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Ah, yes, the interminable, neverending argument of the K&N and other gauze filters (as well as foam filters) vs. paper filters.

I put a K&N on both my 03 Ranger and my wife's 03 Subaru Forester. In both cases, the K&N seal was better made, was of higher quality material, and fit better and tighter in the airbox than the stock seal. The material that the seal around the Forester's stock filter was made out of was really crappy.

I too have done a lot of research, during the past two years, on the airflow differences between gauze (such as K&N) air filters and paper filters and the difference in how many dirt particles of how small or large a size the two types allow through the filter. I have never seen a truly well designed scientific study on the matter. The ones that I've seen have been done by people who are not experts in designing such a study. There's a lot more that goes into such a study than most people realize. All the studies that I've read have been flawed in one or more respects. In my opinion, the controversy is yet to be definitively resolved by top notch studies.

The best evidence I've seen is from people who've run a vehicle well over 100,000 miles with gauze filters such as K&N and the engine's still in good shape.

What gets on the fine wire in the MAF is oil fumes from overoiled gauze filters, not dust that the filter lets through. I've read of people (generally those who for some strange reason never read the instructions for anything they buy that comes with instructions) who drastically overoil a gauze filter, often puting on 3-5 times as much oil as is called for. This is NOT a case of
"if a little is good, then more is better". And remember, paper filters also let a certain amount of dust through. If you don't overoil the filter you don't get oil fumes on the MAF wire. I haven't had oil fume contamination on the MAF of either the Ranger or the Subaru. Nor have I had a buildup of dust on the inside of the air intake tube between the filter and the engine. Not even a fine layer of dust.

An air filter of ANY type is going to let a certain amount of extremely fine dust through the filter. Its my feeling that the particles are so minute in size that they combust in the piston chamber along with the gas (or diesel fuel) and the resulting product is a gas that exhausts out of the engine and causes little if any damage to the engine.
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  #21  
Old 06-16-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmacmaster
What gets on the fine wire in the MAF is oil fumes from overoiled gauze filters, not dust that the filter lets through.
Can someone please tell me how i have spots of mud on the inside of my intake tube then??? I'm talking about the tube that runs from the airbox to the intake manifold? Never had this problem with any of my trucks with my paper filter?

No the truck has never been submerged either.

I do agree with you though on the fact that there is no conclusive studies on this. Only partial tests and manufacturers tests, which don't count for squat in my book due to the fact that their vehicles have been modified to accommodate their product.
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  #22  
Old 06-16-2005
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You're going to find dirt on the bottom (dirty) side of the airbox no matter what.. thats the box's purpose, to act as a seperator/collector for dirt. The airbox cutting mod destroys that feature, removing the snorkel only lessens it. Off-Roading of course will increase the amount of dirt you collect, if you off-road alot you should clean your renewable filter more often or replace your disposable filter MUCH more often.

As for dirt, my college car, a Pontiac Sunfire, had an elaborate wrap-around snorkel air silence that took up the whole inside of the driver's side front fender ahead of the wheel, and still when I changed the filter the bottom of the airbox was literally covered in sand (as in I couldn't see plastic in there, it just looked like the beach.)
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  #23  
Old 06-16-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wowak
As for dirt, my college car, a Pontiac Sunfire, had an elaborate wrap-around snorkel air silence that took up the whole inside of the driver's side front fender ahead of the wheel, and still when I changed the filter the bottom of the airbox was literally covered in sand (as in I couldn't see plastic in there, it just looked like the beach.)
yeah i pulled the "bong" out of my cavy and it lessened the amount of dirt and debris in the bottom of my airbox...

yes i know that if you offroad you'll find dirt in the bottom of your airbox. if you drive your car period you will find dirt in there.

Ok, i'm gonna edit this post to read more elaborately...
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad_Savant
yeah i pulled the "bong" out of my cavy and it lessened the amount of dirt and debris in the bottom of my airbox...

yes i know that if you offroad you'll find dirt in the bottom of your airbox. if you drive your car period you will find dirt in there.

Ok, i'm gonna edit this post to read more elaborately...
Don't do that! Then all the replies look retarded :)
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2005
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you know, i dont think i had problems with dirty filters and air boxes until i changed mine to a fram.

when i say dirty filter i mean always wet and moldy looking.
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