Ask me tuning questions
#76
02-09-2009
It's a narrow band sensor. Meaning that its "accurate" in a range thats only close to stoich. (14.64)
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 02-09-2009 at 03:54 PM.
#77
02-09-2009
Bob you have no point and your not adding useful info to this otherwise informative thread. Please.. have some respect.
When in open loop and closed loop one parameter vs another doesn't carry more weight. MAF, TPS, ECT, IAT, load, 02s, reference charts, ect.. are all inputs that go into the math that the PCM uses to command timing, fuel, the IAC, and tranny.
For example:If you were to disconnect the MAF or it were giving readings out of whack.. there is a chart for the PCM to reference. Same goes for the 02s, VSS, ect.
One does not carry more weight than another.
There are a few exceptions. Crank position sensor, cam sensor, ect must be in place and working properly. There is no way to mathmaticaly substitue for those.
The thing that really complicates this is that there are TONS of limiters. So.. it simply depends on what data point your talking about.
For example:
The knock sensor. The knock sensor doesn't work below 35% load. And it doesn't work above 4000rpms. Well.. those two things are not the same parameter and can't be measured by one thing like speed, throttle position, gear, ect.. It's very complicated and very seldom is there a *blanket statement* that is all inclusive.
In open loop the PCM uses less inputs. In closed loop it uses all of them...... or some. Just depends on the point in question and what limiters are acting on it.
Regards,
Rich
When in open loop and closed loop one parameter vs another doesn't carry more weight. MAF, TPS, ECT, IAT, load, 02s, reference charts, ect.. are all inputs that go into the math that the PCM uses to command timing, fuel, the IAC, and tranny.
For example:If you were to disconnect the MAF or it were giving readings out of whack.. there is a chart for the PCM to reference. Same goes for the 02s, VSS, ect.
One does not carry more weight than another.
There are a few exceptions. Crank position sensor, cam sensor, ect must be in place and working properly. There is no way to mathmaticaly substitue for those.
The thing that really complicates this is that there are TONS of limiters. So.. it simply depends on what data point your talking about.
For example:
The knock sensor. The knock sensor doesn't work below 35% load. And it doesn't work above 4000rpms. Well.. those two things are not the same parameter and can't be measured by one thing like speed, throttle position, gear, ect.. It's very complicated and very seldom is there a *blanket statement* that is all inclusive.
In open loop the PCM uses less inputs. In closed loop it uses all of them...... or some. Just depends on the point in question and what limiters are acting on it.
Regards,
Rich
Rich, I'm not impressed with your BS!!!! You have already shown you don't know what "OPEN LOOP" and "CLOSED LOOP" means!!
Let me repeat one last time for you!! The terms "OPEN LOOP" and "CLOSED LOOP" is referring to the feedback to the PCM from ONLY THE O2 SENSORS, no other sensors!!!! The O2 sensors are the ONLY sensors that tell the PCM if the engine is running rich, Stoich, or lean!!!
Last edited by Takeda; 02-09-2009 at 03:58 PM.
#78
02-09-2009
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl
Chris, I'm scanning 616AF10114
Rich
Chris, I'm scanning 616AF10114
Rich
I noticed that Rich didn't answer your question!
the "616AF10114" is the address for Bank 1, Sensor 1 O2 sensor, this has
nothing to do with the air/fuel ratio.
#79
02-09-2009
It's a narrow band sensor. Meaning that its "accurate" in a range thats only close to stoich. (14.64)
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
Rich, did you replace a standard "narrow band" O2 sensor with a "wideband" O2 sensor? Your using the term "wideband", but your voltage / AF table is for a
narrow band sensor.
You can see the differences in the output voltages between narrow band, and wideband O2 sensors in this graph:
#80
02-09-2009
#81
02-09-2009
You mis-understand 2/3rds the things I say because you jump to a conclusion w/o understanding what I've said or mean. And the other 1/3rd of the time it's because you simply don't read what I've written.
I'm not perfect and make mistakes. Often times it's me calling something by the wrong or an uncommon name. Get over it and post something useful or leave.
"loop" Maybe my understanding is wrong. Show me.
#82
02-09-2009
It's a narrow band sensor. Meaning that its "accurate" in a range thats only close to stoich. (14.64)
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
Well.. here is what I did just as a test to see how accurate it really is. I hooked up my wideband and held it next to the scanguage when doing WOT fuel testing. I found that on my ranger it was quite accurate and repeatable from below stoich all the way to the 0.9 area. I was supprised.
I did that at least 30 times off nitrous. And about 5 times on nitrous. Each time it was very accurate.
Here is a chart I made. All I can say is that on my ranger I've found this to be accurate and repeatable.
If your 02 has a lot of mileage on it.. I don't know what effects that might have?
And keep in mind I've rounded these number a little to make them easy to remember. As is my ranger on both my daily driver tunes and the scanguage will read a .84-ish. Which is in the 12.6-12.7 area. On BAMA tune I'd run 0.7 (13.2a/f) And on henson tunes it would go lean (past stoich) up over 4000 rpms. That is in spite of him swearing it didn't. Yeah right.. Do I listen to a "tuner" or the wideband sitting in my hand.
.85 = 12:0
.8 = 12.5
.75 = 13.0
.65 = 13.5
.6 = 14.0
.55 = 14.5
.5 = 15.0
Rich
#83
02-09-2009
Got my SCT pro racer in front of me. Loop refers to the front 02s and the PCM talking to each other. Bob this is where you stop and call me out for "BS". In the pure sense of "loop".. yes it's only refering to pcm and O2s.
But don't turn off your brain and pick up the hammer just yet.
Bob your taking what I say out of context. And maybe its because I'm not saying the terms properly? If so I'm sorry. I've said this to you before and yet.. the hammering continues.
There are many many other things that allow the loop to be turned off / on, and modified.
In the SCT software there is:
18 different scalers
TPS (throttle position sensor)
Load for decelerations
Open loop delay
Time delay
Rich
But don't turn off your brain and pick up the hammer just yet.
Bob your taking what I say out of context. And maybe its because I'm not saying the terms properly? If so I'm sorry. I've said this to you before and yet.. the hammering continues.
There are many many other things that allow the loop to be turned off / on, and modified.
In the SCT software there is:
18 different scalers
TPS (throttle position sensor)
Load for decelerations
Open loop delay
Time delay
Rich
#84
02-09-2009
Bob.. I'm telling ya with love in my heart for a fellow man. Put down the hammer. Read my postings and if you don't agree thats fine. Ask me to prove what I say instead of calling me a lier. I'll always offer proof.
You mis-understand 2/3rds the things I say because you jump to a conclusion w/o understanding what I've said or mean. And the other 1/3rd of the time it's because you simply don't read what I've written.
I'm not perfect and make mistakes. Often times it's me calling something by the wrong or an uncommon name. Get over it and post something useful or leave.
"loop" Maybe my understanding is wrong. Show me.
You mis-understand 2/3rds the things I say because you jump to a conclusion w/o understanding what I've said or mean. And the other 1/3rd of the time it's because you simply don't read what I've written.
I'm not perfect and make mistakes. Often times it's me calling something by the wrong or an uncommon name. Get over it and post something useful or leave.
"loop" Maybe my understanding is wrong. Show me.
Rich, your problem is you pick up on "buzz words", but you don't know what they mean. When you try to use these "buzz words" in a post, your post turns out to be technically WRONG!! And, if there is anything I can't stand is WRONG information to be posted!!
Ok, once again, explanations for "OPEN LOOP" and "CLOSED LOOP"
"Open loop: In open loop mode the PCM is not using the O2 sensor feedback, in other words the feedback loop is open. Since there is no feedback, the PCM has no idea whether or not its doing a good job of fuel control, so new short term and long term offset values aren't calculated. If the PCM fuel calibration is reasonably good, the PCM generally sets them all to the default value of 128 while its in open loop. The exception to this, which angers all of us drag racers, goes like this. If the recent closed loop BLM was above 128 (actually above 132, I think), the PCM will "remember" the most recently-used BLM value (which could be as high as 160) and use it in PE mode (which is an open loop mode) instead of 128. Since you can't predict what the most recently used BLM will be in this case, you can't tune for WOT."
"Closed loop: Closed loop is the normal operating mode of our PCMs, the mode a typical street driven car is in 99.9% of the time. The PCM comes up with a base pulsewidth by looking at some of the engine sensors, grabbing the value from the VE table (maybe - see the main tutorial page) that corresponds to the signals from those sensors, and using that value in a base pulsewidth calculation. In addition, previous O2 sensor feedback is been used to generate the short term and long term fuel values, which are used to generate correction factors for the base pulsewidth. The final injector pulsewidth is the product of the base pulsewidth and the correction factors."
#85
02-09-2009
I've always "heard" they are not accurate. And I've seen pics like the one that the hammer posted. All I can say is that out of pure curiosity and opportunity I monitored both. Side by side. A scan guage and my innovate wideband right next to it. Those are the results I've personally measured.
Next summer when I'm at the track I'll again repeat this to verify.
Rich
Next summer when I'm at the track I'll again repeat this to verify.
Rich
#86
02-09-2009
That might be true. I've invited you to inform me of such. Yet you come after me with a hammer. EVERYTIME too.
#87
02-09-2009
Time, temp, and TPS are the factors that determine if the PCM is in "OPEN LOOP" or "CLOSED LOOP", BUT ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE "FEEDBACK LOOP"!!!
#91
02-09-2009
#92
02-09-2009
Very few people get under my skin. But for one reason he does. And he knows what it is too. (A subject that belong in the war zone)
I'm guilty. Guilty of mis-using the terms of open loop and closed loop. And now this thread of usefull info has been white washed. And for what? To feed an old mans ego that he corrected someone for improper nomenclature?
I choose not to be that way when / if I reach my golden years.
Later guys,
Rich
I'm guilty. Guilty of mis-using the terms of open loop and closed loop. And now this thread of usefull info has been white washed. And for what? To feed an old mans ego that he corrected someone for improper nomenclature?
I choose not to be that way when / if I reach my golden years.
Later guys,
Rich
#95
02-10-2009
Very few people get under my skin. But for one reason he does. And he knows what it is too. (A subject that belong in the war zone)
I'm guilty. Guilty of mis-using the terms of open loop and closed loop. And now this thread of usefull info has been white washed. And for what? To feed an old mans ego that he corrected someone for improper nomenclature?
I choose not to be that way when / if I reach my golden years.
Later guys,
Rich
I'm guilty. Guilty of mis-using the terms of open loop and closed loop. And now this thread of usefull info has been white washed. And for what? To feed an old mans ego that he corrected someone for improper nomenclature?
I choose not to be that way when / if I reach my golden years.
Later guys,
Rich
#96
02-10-2009
#97
02-10-2009
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Rich and Bob,
Thanks guys, you both answered my question. With my bimmer, I was able to run it in open loop without being at WOT by manipulating fuel, spark heat, duration and timing. I didn't want to start a beef between you two guys, sorry for that. I just wanted to know how to do that with the ranger. Rich thanks for that information, and Bob thanks for reaffirming that the function of the 02 sensors in the vehicle haven't changed because I couldn't find any info on this. You guys both have good information. Please try to squash this because both of you really know what's going on with OBD-II and tuning.
Thanks guys, you both answered my question. With my bimmer, I was able to run it in open loop without being at WOT by manipulating fuel, spark heat, duration and timing. I didn't want to start a beef between you two guys, sorry for that. I just wanted to know how to do that with the ranger. Rich thanks for that information, and Bob thanks for reaffirming that the function of the 02 sensors in the vehicle haven't changed because I couldn't find any info on this. You guys both have good information. Please try to squash this because both of you really know what's going on with OBD-II and tuning.
#98
02-10-2009
#99
02-10-2009
Rich and Bob,
Thanks guys, you both answered my question. With my bimmer, I was able to run it in open loop without being at WOT by manipulating fuel, spark heat, duration and timing. I didn't want to start a beef between you two guys, sorry for that. I just wanted to know how to do that with the ranger. Rich thanks for that information, and Bob thanks for reaffirming that the function of the 02 sensors in the vehicle haven't changed because I couldn't find any info on this. You guys both have good information. Please try to squash this because both of you really know what's going on with OBD-II and tuning.
Thanks guys, you both answered my question. With my bimmer, I was able to run it in open loop without being at WOT by manipulating fuel, spark heat, duration and timing. I didn't want to start a beef between you two guys, sorry for that. I just wanted to know how to do that with the ranger. Rich thanks for that information, and Bob thanks for reaffirming that the function of the 02 sensors in the vehicle haven't changed because I couldn't find any info on this. You guys both have good information. Please try to squash this because both of you really know what's going on with OBD-II and tuning.
#100
02-10-2009
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
You can force nearly every computer to run open loop if you have the software that fully unlocks the computer. On my evo I have a track setup that totally ignores closed loop no matter what the tps says. I don't reccomend using anything like this for DD'ing because you will get terrible fuel mileage. You do realize that the best ecu's are NOT obd2 compliant right?
