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  #26  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjwilson View Post
Those are not going to do anything to reduce axle wrap. How do you not see that?
I mean it all looks good, but it don't do anything. Allowing the tube to extend/collapse completely defeats the purpose.
If you had one tube below, and one above the axle, and those two welded together, with the forward piece being a slip and twist it would help.
But with a single tube it is pointless and ineffective.
Go back to the original plan with one solid tube, or put one above the axle and one below.
not really, if the tolerance is tight enough, these could give just enough restriction to keep the axles from wrapping, plus axle wrap is just that, the axle twisting, not moving back and forth. Well after thinking about it they would work great if they where just solid. kind of like a traction bar. worse case he could just make them solid instead of functional. The work is top notch dude!
  #27  
Old 05-07-2009
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Thanks Ben! I don't think you want me shipping a skid plate that big... It'll cost more than the price to make it overall! haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjwilson View Post
Those are not going to do anything to reduce axle wrap. How do you not see that?
I mean it all looks good, but it don't do anything. Allowing the tube to extend/collapse completely defeats the purpose.
If you had one tube below, and one above the axle, and those two welded together, with the forward piece being a slip and twist it would help.
But with a single tube it is pointless and ineffective.
Go back to the original plan with one solid tube, or put one above the axle and one below.
Worse case scenario, they don't work, I'll re do them next fall term.

I don't see how you think they won't work.

It'll allow the axle not to twist back. Only allowing movement in a y-axis since the two mounting points are stationary.
  #28  
Old 05-07-2009
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Tre, think about how ladder bars work. These are essentially duff bars, and they put the force from the twist of the axle to the spring hangers preventing movement, but if the bars are able to slide, the force won't be applied to the spring hangers and you'll get axle wrap

If anything you could just weld the tubes together at the best spot, and finely adjust with the thread heim joints at the ends.
  #29  
Old 05-07-2009
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Ok so these are basically duff bars, tre style. Thanks for clarifying that guys.

If they don't work, oh well. I'll use the heim joints and make a full "Traction bar" next term.
  #30  
Old 05-07-2009
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Originally Posted by jeweler54 View Post
not really, if the tolerance is tight enough, these could give just enough restriction to keep the axles from wrapping, plus axle wrap is just that, the axle twisting, not moving back and forth. Well after thinking about it they would work great if they where just solid. kind of like a traction bar. worse case he could just make them solid instead of functional. The work is top notch dude!
Yes, rely on the friction of two steel surfaces to prevent movement, lol.
But your second part is right. and top notch work though. looks great.
  #31  
Old 05-07-2009
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Ok so these are basically duff bars, tre style. Thanks for clarifying that guys.
Yes, lol. How are you mounting them up front? To the spring hangers right?
  #32  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjwilson View Post
Those are not going to do anything to reduce axle wrap. How do you not see that?
I mean it all looks good, but it don't do anything. Allowing the tube to extend/collapse completely defeats the purpose.
If you had one tube below, and one above the axle, and those two welded together, with the forward piece being a slip and twist it would help.
But with a single tube it is pointless and ineffective.
Go back to the original plan with one solid tube, or put one above the axle and one below.
and thats why hundreds of leaf sprung off road rigs run that setup?
a solid bar will want to push/pull the axle through its travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeweler54 View Post
not really, if the tolerance is tight enough, these could give just enough restriction to keep the axles from wrapping, plus axle wrap is just that, the axle twisting, not moving back and forth. Well after thinking about it they would work great if they where just solid. kind of like a traction bar. worse case he could just make them solid instead of functional. The work is top notch dude!
someone understands
  #33  
Old 05-07-2009
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I think alot of it has to do with the angle they are placed in relation to the axle. I think it'll improve the traction department if placed properly in relation to the axle. BUT...idk. I dont know much about this sorta stuff.
  #34  
Old 05-07-2009
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Nope above the hangars actually.
  #35  
Old 05-07-2009
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IF the friction was really tight between the two tubes, it may help some. It would be similar to mounting a shock absorber in place of the bar, but probably more noisy and sticky.

Otherwise, they will not prevent twisting. I understand that you are trying to allow them some movement so that the axle does not push forward and back through the range of travel. However, I don't think that is a real issue if they are mounted on the correct angle with the correct length. People don't seem to have issues with the duff bars. The warrior bars have a pin to lock them solid, that is what would prevent axle wrap. Remove the pin and everything would move freely offroad, but not prevent axle twist.

If you place the forward mount an equal height above the spring as the rear mount is, and it was solid, it should not push/pull enough to cause any issues.

In case my last post was confusing, I was saying that the slip and twist design is good and effective when used on a traction bar with a mount above and below the axle. That triangulation is what keeps the axle from twisting.
With only one mount with slip and twist, there is no triangulation.


Again, your work looks awsome! I think these word work well if applied differently, that's all!
  #36  
Old 05-07-2009
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do i need to take a video of my hand demonstrating how an axle "wraps" and how this bar WILL help???

putting a pin in it would eliminate and reason to ever make it slip in the first place.


before


After


notice how the pinion shoots up? not forwards? if it went forwards, yes, this design would be ineffective, but it does't.
  #37  
Old 05-07-2009
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Umm, that bar looked solid to me in that vid and that is why it worked.. have any better pictures of it?
  #38  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99ranger4x4 View Post
before


After
mmmm...cummin'ingins.
  #39  
Old 05-07-2009
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I'm not an idiot, I know what axle wrap is and what combats it. That bar looked solid to me also.
The principle behind the bar such as the duff bar is that the bar is solid. It makes a solid link to the frame, and above (or below) the spring or axle. As the axle tries to twist, the mount above the axle would attempt to move back and forward because of the leverage. The solid link prevents the mount from moving forward/back, which prevents the axle from twisting.

Of course removing a pin on those bars defeats the purpose! That is what I said! It makes it just as (in)effective as what he is building!
  #40  
Old 05-07-2009
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Here are just a few images of single bar traction bars. None of them are designed to slip and twist beyond what bushings would allow.
I guess everyone else must have it wrong, huh?






  #41  
Old 05-07-2009
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A solid bar will "bind" the suspension. At what point will it bind that depends. He cant use his heims if he wants a solid bar. A traction bar is just like a Ford radius arm. There needs to be some sort of rubber in there. With out a rubber mount the arm will bind, the same is true for a traction bar.

Im still saying he needs to build this style, its the most effective and doesnt bind up.

  #42  
Old 05-07-2009
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I agree with brianjwilson. allowing the bar to slip will do nothing but possible dampen very little the wrap unless it is tied into the axle at two points one above the other. I would not take much more time or metal to accomplish this and it would make them functional.

Dont get too busy at school Tre, i may need you to plasma CNC some of my 3/16 for a rear bumper soon!!
  #43  
Old 05-07-2009
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Those "heims" are nothing like the one you showed me earlier either. Those are el cheapo tractor joints. They will not last long before they get slop in them.

Last edited by redranger4.0; 05-07-2009 at 10:59 AM.
  #44  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redranger4.0 View Post
A solid bar will "bind" the suspension. At what point will it bind that depends. He cant use his heims if he wants a solid bar. A traction bar is just like a Ford radius arm. There needs to be some sort of rubber in there. With out a rubber mount the arm will bind, the same is true for a traction bar.

Im still saying he needs to build this style, its the most effective and doesnt bind up.

That would work, but it would accomplish the exact same thing if he tied his sliding design into the axle at the top and bottom.
  #45  
Old 05-07-2009
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Originally Posted by Woods-Rider View Post
That would work, but it would accomplish the exact same thing if he tied his sliding design into the axle at the top and bottom.
I would skip the sliding section from a reliability standpoint, The above design put as close to the pumpkin would eliminate the need for two bars and is alot simpler. And theres nothing to keep greased so it doesnt seize.

Edit: just a side note that the shackle in the setup I posted should go down to a crossmember, not up like it is in the picture.
  #46  
Old 05-07-2009
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true, but he already has 80% of the slide style made
  #47  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjwilson View Post
Here are just a few images of single bar traction bars. None of them are designed to slip and twist beyond what bushings would allow.
I guess everyone else must have it wrong, huh?

that looks like a cantilever setup of some sort.


i'm standing behind the fact that thousands of offroad rigs have either a shackle or the slip and twist, its a proven way of doing it.

and yes, for a true race truck, you dont want any movement, but your also not worried about suspension travel.

im out. its a useless argument.
  #48  
Old 05-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99ranger4x4 View Post
that looks like a cantilever setup of some sort.
Your right Ive seen that jeep before, but you can see the bar for the cantilever coming off the axle where a shock would normally be. That is a traction bar.
  #49  
Old 05-07-2009
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Brain, you don't seem to get that it HAS to be able to move somewhat for suspension travel..

f*ck it, close this thread please. It's causing more problems than it's worth. But thank you to those that know what you're talking about (Andrew, Matt, Shane).

Don't worry about a finished product either. Only few will see it.
  #50  
Old 05-07-2009
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It's a perfectly fine arguement. Alot of it IS theory in my opinion, as is alot of suspension and other mods done to vehicles.

OP asked for it. Thread Closed.
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