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  #26  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelfishin
I doubt Ford will go anywhere anytime soon, the Federal Government would bail them out first to save the jobs.
Part of the problem is that too many people are brain washed that the imports are better in some way. Myself I just don't see it. I worked for Ford dealers for over 15 years and spent time with both Ford and GM as well, and several dealers that I was at also had import franchises. We hated the imports, they were hard to work on, parts were expensive, and they didn't take the punishment that the American vehicles did.
I have owned mostly nothing but Ford vehicles, with a few Mopar and GM vehicles here and there (with the exeption of two Toyotas a few older air cooled VWs and a Mercedes). All of my Mopar's were older, except for a few later vans that came to me in a package deal, (they came with a buyout and it's been cheaper to keep rebuilding them than to buy new). When it comes to trucks, Ford is the only game in town when it comes to quality. While all vehicles have their problems, Ford just seems to be the most trouble free.

Want to know My opinion, If the government Bails them out, with anything except letting them out of union Contracts I think it is unamerican. Subsidizing a company that operates under a loss is unamerican. The fact of the matter is, Ford Screwed up. They negotiated Horrible Deals with the unions, SPent way to much money on things operating costs that could have been spent elsewhere. Yes they Were given the short end of the stick by the unions and the Federal regualations. But it is a business, and I could not sit her and stick to my own Small government principles, if I agreed with Ford being bailed out for poor Business decisions, on the back of the american taxpayers.

It is the same reason I don't support Farm subsidies, Everybody wants to say we need to bail out the lowly farmer he is a symbol of america, But that is not true, he is a businessman that has become too efficient to stay marketable without diversifying, and failure to do so, becasue of tradition is a bad business decision.

Frankly if Ford goes under, or GM then the others better learn what they did wrong and figure out how to correct the problem. If we really want to be in the business of depending on our governement for financial considerations, we have become a country that is not America. And I for one do not agree with that. THis is Ford's Battle to lose. I hope they figure out a way to dig their way out of this, and it will be sad if they don't, But Giving a Corporation the equivelant of Welfare, is not what this country is about.
~HJ
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  #27  
Old 12-26-2006
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some of you don't remember when the government bailed out chrysler back in 1981. no major auto manufacturer is going away. be realistic.
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2006
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Originally Posted by edgeaholic (tm)
some of you don't remember when the government bailed out chrysler back in 1981. no major auto manufacturer is going away. be realistic.
I remember it and I disagreed with it then! It was the same problem, Poor marketing and failure to keep up with a Changing market. If they could have Came out with the K car about Five years ealier and Lee Iococca would have taken his minivan Idea from Ford to Chrysler about a Year or two earlier, the Company would have been fine. They Failed and the Government gave them Money as a reward for Failure. They gave them My money (Figuratively speaking I was a Baby at the time)! Unamerican IMO.

~HJ
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  #29  
Old 12-26-2006
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yea but you also have to remember that our government is giving tax breaks to the foreign automakers to build new factories here, but they are not giving the same tax breaks to American automakers...
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  #30  
Old 12-26-2006
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Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
yea but you also have to remember that our government is giving tax breaks to the foreign automakers to build new factories here, but they are not giving the same tax breaks to American automakers...
No Arguement there, That is Wrong and They should be forced to compete on the same playing field. But This is part of doing business, That's like you working hard to build your truck and After the fact complaing becasue your Dad built the Same truck For your Brother and gave it to him free. It's unfair, but Life's unfair, you Deal with it and move on.

~HJ
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  #31  
Old 12-26-2006
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yea but the tax breaks can make or break a company....the government should give the breaks to a homegrown company not an outsider.....the government should support our American companies before they support foreign companies.....that would be like Germany giving Ford tax breaks to build new factories there and not give the breaks to VW.....
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  #32  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
yea but you also have to remember that our government is giving tax breaks to the foreign automakers to build new factories here, but they are not giving the same tax breaks to American automakers...
- what are you talking about??
if GM or FORD opened a new plant in Alabama, South Carolina, California, Tennessee or Ohio they would get the same tax incentives
PS - most if not all of those incentives come from local and state government - not federal
in your wildest imagination how could you think the federal government would favor a foreign firm over a domestic entity?
GM and FORD are leaving the USA and producing off shore - there is no tax incentive for being a deserter!!!
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  #33  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
yea but the tax breaks can make or break a company....the government should give the breaks to a homegrown company not an outsider.....the government should support our American companies before they support foreign companies.....that would be like Germany giving Ford tax breaks to build new factories there and not give the breaks to VW.....
No arguement, but as a Business this is the Cards they were dealt and they Either need to play or walk away. It is unfair and I think it is horrible policy. I honestly Don't care about tax breaks for Toyota, I just think that Ford should get them too. Less taxes spurs growth. But Whether that is true or not, doesn't change the Circumstances today. They can fight that battle in the future, but today they have to work within their current circumstances. Crying to Daddy that it's unfair is not how a free market works. Nor should it.

~HJ
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  #34  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LILBLUE04FX4L2
- what are you talking about??
if GM or FORD opened a new plant in Alabama, South Carolina, California, Tennessee or Ohio they would get the same tax incentives
PS - most if not all of those incentives come from local and state government - not federal
in your wildest imagination how could you think the federal government would favor a foreign firm over a domestic entity?
GM and FORD are leaving the USA and producing off shore - there is no tax incentive for being a deserter!!!
because they have to find a way to produce vehicles and compete with foreign automakers who DO NOT have labor unions driving up rates.....if Ford, GM, or Chrysler go out of the country to build a car, then they dont have to pay union wages....which in turn will drop the price of a car....
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  #35  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LILBLUE04FX4L2
- what are you talking about??
if GM or FORD opened a new plant in Alabama, South Carolina, California, Tennessee or Ohio they would get the same tax incentives
PS - most if not all of those incentives come from local and state government - not federal
in your wildest imagination how could you think the federal government would favor a foreign firm over a domestic entity?
GM and FORD are leaving the USA and producing off shore - there is no tax incentive for being a deserter!!!
The Federal Government has all kinds of incentives to get foreign companies to open up plants here. They aren't held to the same scrutiny in negotiating union contracts, they don't have to pay import fees, that they otherwise would have. Heck the Tundra wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that. The Government imposes a tax for importing vehicles that with a vehicle as large as the tundra made it fiscally imfeasable to make in Japan and ship over here, so they built Plants in areas of the U.S. that would do anything to have a plant there. (I support this by the way) But Because Ford is incorporated here, they are liable for a Ton more Federal Corporation taxes than Toyota. They also haven't been able to have the leverage in Union negotiations, for a variety of reasons, which gets them Crappy (From a bottom line aspect) Contracts. They should have been relocating their plants to areas with a friendlier Climate years ago, but once again they were bound buy Union Contracts to pay through a certain year whether the plant was open, so how do you close a plant and pay people for doing nothing for years well building a new plant and paying a second workforce. There are alot more Dynamics to this than mosty people are aware. This didn't happen overnight, It happen 10-20 Years ago, and instead of dealing with it, they buried their heads. Now you guys want to bail them out using my money. I Don't agree with that.

~HJ
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  #36  
Old 12-26-2006
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The unions have nothing to do with tax incentives - what is your point?
check the facts on these 'tax incentives' before you us them to bash companies that are employing thousands of American workers

I agree that the automotive unions are breaking the back of FORD and GM - but that has nothing to do with a state giving tax credits so that a new plant will be built in their backyard
if you were using facts or actual statistics your point might be stronger - but pick a focus and stick with it
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  #37  
Old 12-26-2006
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Did I say anything about Unions having an effect on tax incentives for Toyota? I am not Bashing Toyota for being here! I think it is Great that they are Here, I am Bashing Poor Business decisions, Union Contracts, and ant-corporate business enviroments that don't understand how to cater to business's. I am not going to run you Down a bunch of links for this, becasue I could care less! Use Google, and get a business degree. You are equateing two dymanics that are unrelated. I want to see your facts that Foreign Companies are held to the exact same Federal Corporation Taxes as American based corporations? I also want you To show me where Toyota has the Same horrid Union Contracts with Cadillac level insurance plans that Ford and GM have to pay.

~HJ
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  #38  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAZZARDJOHN
The Federal Government has all kinds of incentives to get foreign companies to open up plants here.
again - I do not think it is the Federal Government at work on those tax incentives and they are available to every legitimate concern

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAZZARDJOHN
They aren't held to the same scrutiny in negotiating union contracts, they don't have to pay import fees, that they otherwise would have. Heck the Tundra wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that. The Government imposes a tax for importing vehicles that with a vehicle as large as the tundra made it fiscally imfeasable to make in Japan and ship over here, so they built Plants in areas of the U.S. that would do anything to have a plant there.
you have never been on a car carrier have you.....
we export more trucks & SUVS than we import back out on the same vessels
problem is that is all the American plants are producting (trucks & SUV) - where are the safe and fuel efficent cars?
and no foreign importer gets any incentive on duties or tariff
in fact those tariffs are almost identical for importers of the same product as for the exporter
fair and open trade is what the USA enjoys and we guard and protect it with a vengence
every day the market for certain cargo opens and closes - mainly that applies to clothing and steel
we have anti dumping laws in effect but they mostly apply to base materials
it all depends on content origin and assembally point
if we see a country closing out a market for a USA product within a week we take like action against a product they export to the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAZZARDJOHN
But Because Ford is incorporated here, they are liable for a Ton more Federal Corporation taxes than Toyota.
I don't think that is a correct statement either
all the foreign manufacturers here operate under US Corporate rules as 'American' companies
check the names, Honda of America, Hyundai of America.... etc.....
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  #39  
Old 12-26-2006
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Once again you are focusing on the wrong parts:

Here is a Nice article that I just read out of boredom that summs up what I was stating.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081800987.html

Let's Recap all of my Points!

- Poor Business Decisions by the Big 3

- Horrible Union Contracts that are too top heavy

- Foreign Car companies, building their Infgrastructure in Friendly enviroments ( ie. Tax breaks)

- Foreign Car companies, Not Negotiating with unions.

- Federal incentives to open up plants here to create jobs in Low job areas (I support this)

- If the Foreign car company builds the car here, they don't have to pay tariff's (1 example of a federal incentive to build here) I am for this too.

- I have no Problem with the Incentives for foreign business, They create Jobs.

- Their is many Dymanics than what meets the eyes as to why this business model failed, and the Management is the one left holding the dance card at the end of the night reguardless of the rest of the factors.

is that simple enough?

~HJ
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  #40  
Old 12-26-2006
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OK, OK - #36 was for Maurice not you John

I agree with you, it's just some of the examples you use are sketchy
How do I know, because I am in the import/export business and currently operate 4 ships between the USA and Europe
I used to work for the largest car carrier in the world - Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha, Ltd. ("K" Line)

we are exporting plenty of vehicles and specialty equipment (giant trucks, dozers, earthmoving machinery) + trucks and SUVS
we just don't make a world class car here
this should be no surprise as FORD and GM make most of their new model cars off shore
the outgoing vessels have a good number of Cadilacs and BMWS, but come in full and go out at 15-20% of capacity
it was not until recently that US manufacturers figured out any car more than 5 meters long is too big to operate in any country but the USA
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  #41  
Old 12-26-2006
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time to kick out the japs... there silly lil cars and trucks...
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  #42  
Old 12-26-2006
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Sorry I thought it was dorected at me!

I think where the big three are having problems is reguardless of howmany cars they sell overseas (which is Less the they sell here, I'm Talking Ford Chevy Dodge Etc. Not Jaguar and Volvo) They are losing there market share. 40% of all U.S. cars sales today belong to a Foreign Headquartered company. Now Ford Should have been dealing with this along time ago, but trying to start now, it might very well be too late. I think the Government Will bail them out, But this is a slap in the face to the Free market system. I don't want Ford to go, or GM (Chrysler is already gone) but I can't sit here and say I support a Governemnt subsidy for Ford and Don't support one for everything else. Now we can argue about what's more reliable, but most people on this forum are Car people, Non Car people Don't Care, and there are far more of them than there are us. The PR campaign by Foreign car cmopanies worked. People Legitamatly believe foreign cars are more reliable, Cheaper, More fuel economy, and safer than American cars. Whether it is true or not, There is nothing the big three can do to change this. This goes back twenty years. We are the last hold outs becasue most of our Dad's were Buy American Crowds, Imports are junk. But that Crowd is dwindling everyday. I saw the Pain in my Grandpa's Eye's when he talked about Japan and Germany. I know it would hurt him to support a country that killed his friends. But my Children wil never see that. I can explain it to them, but without seeing it, I don't think they'll understand.

~HJ
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  #43  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAZZARDJOHN
Want to know My opinion, If the government Bails them out, with anything except letting them out of union Contracts I think it is unamerican. Subsidizing a company that operates under a loss is unamerican.
Heh, you ever travel by train? Amtrak is the biggest failure out there and we as taxpayers feed them billions to keep them alive. I think it is time for Amtrak too start cutting their losses here too. If they can't make money, then they need to start giving up the routes that net a loss. When you are losing twice what you make, something is wrong.
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  #44  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LILBLUE04FX4L2
The unions have nothing to do with tax incentives - what is your point?
check the facts on these 'tax incentives' before you us them to bash companies that are employing thousands of American workers

I agree that the automotive unions are breaking the back of FORD and GM - but that has nothing to do with a state giving tax credits so that a new plant will be built in their backyard
if you were using facts or actual statistics your point might be stronger - but pick a focus and stick with it
i was making 2 points not just 1.....
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  #45  
Old 12-26-2006
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Sorry for starting such a heated thread. I am jumping on a plane to Germany today.....everyone have a good New Years.

My real point here is Ford has been in business for many years, through the good and the bad. THEY SHOULD HAVE THEIR OWN MONEY!!!!!!! and not need to borrow billions. Poor management is the major downfall of any company, not a poor product.
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  #46  
Old 12-26-2006
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AMTRAK - needs to go the same way as CONRAIL
A company formed by the government to take over failing business should have a starting point and a finishing point
If they do not succeed they need to be dissolved

Problem here is rail transport (passenger & freight) needs government intervention - to a point
We all know that the current one person per automobile is killing the USA and the Earth
Mass transit is a necessity - we just fight it every step of the way
CONRAIL was formed by the federal government to pull together 6 or 7 regional rail carriers
In the end it was broken up and sold to interested parties, mainly the NS and CSX
We can not let railroads (or even AMTRAK) fail because we need them to pull trucks (for freight) and people (out of cars) off our already burdened roadways
AMTRAK lives on subsidies because they can
Let them give up some non profitable routes - another rail carrier will pick them up
We need more trains in the USA not less
Unfortunately there are more real estate developers standing by to suck up the rights of way from the demise of any regional carrier than other rail operators waiting to run the same failing line

But, the railroads worked out their differences with the unions so I have some hope that the auto workers can too!!
They fought crew size, work hours, benefits, distance from home and a list of other grievances
In the end they worked it out because it was in the best interest of the company and the workers
The same can be said for the ILA and the WILA they fought and fought but in the end realized they were crippling the ports and going to loose it all
Technology reduced the available jobs both on the dock and clerical
That also goes for the assembly line were much of the tedious and repetitive work is being done robotically
The UAW fights to save a few jobs and look at what happened; the factory moved to Mexico

Auto manufactures have to take clues from other union tight businesses and pare down the work force through attrition and retirement BUT SOON!!
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  #47  
Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgeaholic (tm)
some of you don't remember when the government bailed out chrysler back in 1981. no major auto manufacturer is going away. be realistic.
Datsun? Daewoo? Opel? Cord? De Soto? Triumph? Eagle? MG? ******?
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  #48  
Old 12-26-2006
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datsun is now nissan. daewoo is still here. not sure about the rest. im sure someone can chime in.
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  #49  
Old 12-26-2006
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Originally Posted by texasbullseye89
daewoo is still here.
Daewoo is changing their name in every other country because they are peices of crap.
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  #50  
Old 12-26-2006
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Guys,
Ford is not hurting nearly as bad as they are making it out to be.
Let's think about some things.
I have been following FOMOCO for years on all sides of it.

The way big businesses work is they project how much they will make this year, let's say $100 million. On Decemeber 31 at 2359 they only make $98 million it is still considered a loss because it is less than projected. (first I want to be able to do this on my taxes...)

More importantly, Ford has everyone including current employees freaked out.
Look at the buyouts Ford has going on right now, the Louisville Assembly Plant (Explorer, Sport Trac, Merc) has 1,700 out of 5,000 taking the buyout option.

Competetive Wages. Just like GM, GE, and several other large companies competetive wages are allowing a much cheaper workforce.

Let's look at GE for example, since I work here and know the exact details.
GE Appliance Park in Louisville, KY was once home to 27,500 Full time employees.
Over the years and foreign deporting of jobs that number has dwindled down to 4,500. As foreign countries are starting to cause a drop in quality and playing the money game, GE is moving 5,000 jobs back to Appliance Park over the next 5 years. The current line employee starts out at $18.50 an hour with a 3 year progression plan totaling over $27.00.
The new hires start at $13.00 and have a 5 year progression to $18.00 an hour. That workforce difference just at Appliance Park makes a huge different in the payroll amount each year. Imagine a company like FOMOCO with 330,000 employees worldwide, getting rid of the 20-30 year vets with 5-10 weeks vacation each year and replacing with fresh $13.00 and 1 week vacation saves millions a year.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ford's stock jumps up in the next 5 years and bounces back.

The quality of vehicles is going up, they're bringing out the "cool" cars, and they do employee a a pretty good amount of people.

As for foreign countries they tax the hell out of American vehicles when they enter the country.
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