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  #1  
Old 08-31-2007
KARPE's Avatar
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new brake pads, truck shudders

I threw on a set of hawker brake pads about a month which were much needed, my old one had about a millimeter of whatever compound is used left. Braking is better, but the front end shudders now upon applying the brakes. is this any cause for concern?
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Old 08-31-2007
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did you have your rotors turned before you put the new pads on there? if you didn't, you more than likely have not only made the new pads have an uneven wear, but you probably have warpped (sp) rotors.....you old pads were groved to fit the rotors is why you didn't notice it before....
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Old 08-31-2007
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In addition to being turned, they should have been checked for minimum thickness......I agree, you have some warped rotors......
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Old 08-31-2007
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im fixin to get some Hawk HPS pads and throw 'em on myself, so let me know how they turn out... i only have an '04, barring any early wear i wouldn't have warped rotors would I? I hadn't planned on having a shop machine the rotors but if it is necessary than i will
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Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txboy11
im fixin to get some Hawk HPS pads and throw 'em on myself, so let me know how they turn out... i only have an '04, barring any early wear i wouldn't have warped rotors would I? I hadn't planned on having a shop machine the rotors but if it is necessary than i will
no matter what, when you put on new brakes, you should have your rotors turned.......

and yes you could have warpped rotors.....all it takes is them being hot and you drive through some water...
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Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
no matter what, when you put on new brakes, you should have your rotors turned.......
Wrong.

That is the old school way of thinking. I said it in another thread as well: The new pads WILL wear to the "normal" grooving in a rotor. There is usually no need to turn rotors or drums during a brake change. There should not be any suddering, though. That means a warped rotor, froze caliper, etc.

I've done many brake changes since 1988, and I stopped turning rotors in about 1997. I have never had a problem out of a single brake job done in this manner.
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Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team_insanity
Wrong.

That is the old school way of thinking. I said it in another thread as well: The new pads WILL wear to the "normal" grooving in a rotor. There is usually no need to turn rotors or drums during a brake change.
you sure are correct.....the rotors will wear to the groves in the rotor, HOWEVER there shouldn't be any "normal" grooves in the rotor.....it should be smooth....any grooves in a rotor means a foreign object has been between the pad and rotor when the brakes were applied causeing a groove to be cut into the rotor.....

a brake rotor should be smoot, not grooved......if you don't turn a rotor IF it has grooves in it, you WILL wear out your pads faster...

and if you still want to argue that rotors have "normal" grooving, then why do they not have them grooves in them when you buy a new rotor?......o that is right, because there is NOT susposed to be grooves in the rotor......

please use your head next time....
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Old 08-31-2007
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Of course there is going to be debris between the pad and the rotor...it's called brake dust, which can and does cause grooves in the rotor. No rotor with 30K miles on it is smooth. Go out and check yours, there will be grooves in it. Now, gouges (say from mud and external debris) is a different story. I've got that problem right now, which is why I'm replacing my rotors (breakage=opportunity to upgrade...lol). And just as a side note: this same principle applies to aircraft. I have never turned rotors or on any type of aircraft that I've worked on, either.

Regarding your final statement, there is no need to take a "tone." We are all here to give/recieve information.
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Old 08-31-2007
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you should always turn rotors to get the grooves out......no matter what.....
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2007
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I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I've turned wrenches for almost two decades now, and most of that time it was in a "paid" capacity. Everything from fixed and rotory-wing aircraft, to heavy trucks, to RV's, to autos. I've seen very few instances where it's necessary to "waste" the metal on a rotor or drum. A side note to ponder...if turning them is the correct thing to do, then why does it not state to do so in aircraft tech manuals? Those manuals give step by step instruction on every single item on a particular aircraft that HAS to be followed to the letter. I have never seen it say to turn rotors in a tech manual. This is all I have to say on this topic.
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Old 08-31-2007
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the new pads have been on for maybe 500-700 miles. Is it "too late" for any action to be taken? and what kind of cost am I looking at to "turn" rotors?

I have an idea of what TURNING rotors means, but if anyone could explain the process for myself and anyone else curious, I would appreciate it.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2007
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Small grooves in rotors never used to be a problem when everyone used organic pads. these were made of softer material, and they quickly wear to match the surface of the rotors. Maybe a lot of aircraft still use them--they tend to grab and stop better, but also wear much quicker.

With semi metallic pads, the pads are nearly as hard as the rotor material. I worked in an alignment and brake shop for years, and we fixed lots of vehicles that would come in with squealing and chattering brakes due to a backyard brakejob where the rotors wern't turned. Perhaps semi-metallic pads will wear to match the grooves int he rotors over time, but in the meantime the pads will not fully meet the full surface of the rotors and build up heat unevenly--which can certainly cause rotors to warp. This is likely what happened to the guy who started this thread.

Semi-metallic pads generate more heat than organic too, which exacerbates the problem. And rotors that aren't flat will heat unevenly; a little more metal on high points between grooves won't stop rotors from warping, but it can certainly lead to it.

You can do your brakes however you want and you might get lucky, but there is nothing wrong with turning rotors as long as you don't turn them past factory spec. And no good shop would do that. Ford wouldn't provide specs for it if turning was a problem. Take your truck to a Ford service dept and try to get them to change your pads and not turn your grooved rotors. The answer is, they won't. 'Nuff said.

Last edited by 07B2300; 08-31-2007 at 10:44 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2007
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Turning the rotors is machining the grooves out of them, to make them completely smooth again (just so they can get the tiny grooves in the again from normal wear). It isn't very expensive, usually less than $40 for a pair. It isn't too late to fix this. I would pull both rotors and have them checked for true. If they are warped, replace them. Even if just one is warped, it is best to replace the pair. Rotors usually aren't very expensive, $30-$40 each for OEM. Or you can go the route that some do and upgrade. I just ordered Summit's slotted and cross-drilled rotors for my truck at $90 each.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KARPE
the new pads have been on for maybe 500-700 miles. Is it "too late" for any action to be taken? and what kind of cost am I looking at to "turn" rotors?

I have an idea of what TURNING rotors means, but if anyone could explain the process for myself and anyone else curious, I would appreciate it.
i think if you acted NOW, you would be fine with the pads.....

what turning a rotor does is shave off the surface of the rotor to get the impurties out of the metal, ie: the grooves....a turning machine is nothing but a metal lave(sp?).........

Quote:
Originally Posted by team_insanity
I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I've turned wrenches for almost two decades now, and most of that time it was in a "paid" capacity. Everything from fixed and rotory-wing aircraft, to heavy trucks, to RV's, to autos. I've seen very few instances where it's necessary to "waste" the metal on a rotor or drum. A side note to ponder...if turning them is the correct thing to do, then why does it not state to do so in aircraft tech manuals? Those manuals give step by step instruction on every single item on a particular aircraft that HAS to be followed to the letter. I have never seen it say to turn rotors in a tech manual. This is all I have to say on this topic.
air craft----car.....see a difference here

good for you and your work......i see now that not all "professionals" know it all.....

you go grab a tech manual for a car and it will tell you to turn the rotors whenever you change the pads.....my Haynes AND Chilton manual say to have the rotors turned when doing brakes on the Ranger......

and for the little $7 a rotor it cost to have them turned every 40,000-50,000 miles is worth it to me....
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07B2300
Take your truck to a Ford service dept and try to get them to change your pads and not turn your grooved rotors. They won't. 'Nuff said.
Yeah..cause a Ford service chop would never screw the customer and do unnecessary maintenance.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2007
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yo

Having your rotors turned means you take them off the truck and put them on a device called a brake lathe. This machine removes metal from the rotor's surface, taking it down past the deepest wear in the rotor and making the whole braking surface smooth again. It gives you a nice even braking surface but decreases the thickness of your rotor, and there is a set amount of "rotor thickness" that you can't grind past, it is an indicator of wear as well as replacement.

If you're brakes are still shuddering after that many miles, it's probably a warped rotor. The pads will conform to the surface of the rotor, but they can't compensate for bends or cracks.
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team_insanity
Rotors usually aren't very expensive, $30-$40 each for OEM. Or you can go the route that some do and upgrade. I just ordered Summit's slotted and cross-drilled rotors for my truck at $90 each.
OEM rotors are not $30-$40 each.....look more into the $100 each range for Motorcraft OEM rotors......you could probably get them for $30-$40 each for Autozone specials......

and turning rotors only runs about $7 at O'Reilly Auto Parts.....and they would be able to tell you if they are warped......i would take yours off and let them try and turn them.....then if they say they are warped buy new rotors...
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifted97ranger
OEM rotors are not $30-$40 each.....look more into the $100 each range for Motorcraft OEM rotors......you could probably get them for $30-$40 each for Autozone specials......

and turning rotors only runs about $7 at O'Reilly Auto Parts.....and they would be able to tell you if they are warped......i would take yours off and let them try and turn them.....then if they say they are warped buy new rotors...
You know what...I'm tired of your shade tree mechanic, volunteer firefighting, 25 year old that knows everything ***. **** you and **** this site.
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  #19  
Old 08-31-2007
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do you guys have any links to these rotors? for my 2wd xlt they seem to be much more expensive than the 4wd or Edges.... I dunno why. I wanted to buy from Wayne or Jusnes, but they are like $150 a piece and 300 for rotors just seems outside of reasonable to me.
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2007
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Originally Posted by team_insanity
Wrong.

That is the old school way of thinking. I said it in another thread as well: The new pads WILL wear to the "normal" grooving in a rotor. There is usually no need to turn rotors or drums during a brake change. There should not be any suddering, though. That means a warped rotor, froze caliper, etc.

I've done many brake changes since 1988, and I stopped turning rotors in about 1997. I have never had a problem out of a single brake job done in this manner.

So.. in other words, you believe tossing on new pads without having a flat surface ( IE: Maximum grab ) to mate with isn't nessecary?

What your saying is teh pads themselves will make contact and eventually wear, which is correct, but the initial surfacing grab will be **** POOR to begin with and can lead to a pad mis-aligning on its backing plate as well as glazing.

I'll stay ' old school ' with the 30 years of doing brakes I have and tell you ' Sorry Charlie, your wrong and ill-advised '.
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  #21  
Old 08-31-2007
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Originally Posted by team_insanity
You know what...I'm tired of your shade tree mechanic, volunteer firefighting, 25 year old that knows everything ***. **** you and **** this site.
a

chill out, are you just mad cause he proved you wrong? yeah i dont agree with him all the time, but ive seen very few cases where hes been wrong about rangers. if you have a problem then just leave.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KARPE
do you guys have any links to these rotors? for my 2wd xlt they seem to be much more expensive than the 4wd or Edges.... I dunno why. I wanted to buy from Wayne or Jusnes, but they are like $150 a piece and 300 for rotors just seems outside of reasonable to me.
Andy..

*I* don't even run ' drilled and slotted ' rotors. Being 100% honest, I have in the past and its a WASTE with the factory calipers ( Bosch ).

Napa and ' Advanced Auto ' have regular steel rotors for 30-50$ ( each ). Thats all you will really need. You won't see ANY difference in fade compared to some drilled and slotted setup on *your* truck.
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2007
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Originally Posted by team_insanity
You know what...I'm tired of your shade tree mechanic, volunteer firefighting, 25 year old that knows everything ***. **** you and **** this site.
I'm a shade tree mechanic myself. Yep. One nitrous guzzeling, read-disc axle built rice stomping type. I will freely admit to trashing a LOT of things on *my* truck. One of them is NOT the front brakes.
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2007
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Originally Posted by D.
So.. in other words, you believe tossing on new pads without having a flat surface ( IE: Maximum grab ) to mate with isn't nessecary?

What your saying is teh pads themselves will make contact and eventually wear, which is correct, but the initial surfacing grab will be **** POOR to begin with and can lead to a pad mis-aligning on its backing plate as well as glazing.

I'll stay ' old school ' with the 30 years of doing brakes I have and tell you ' Sorry Charlie, your wrong and ill-advised '.
^everything i have said backed up by someone who relies on brakes to stop in racing......
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2007
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Originally Posted by team_insanity
You know what...I'm tired of your shade tree mechanic, volunteer firefighting, 25 year old that knows everything ***. **** you and **** this site.
Man, if you can't stand a little friendly debate with others members, I, for one, certainly won't miss you. We're all learning from each other. I've been pullin' wrenches, on and off, for 24 years (migod!) and I'm learning things from you guys all the time.

Thanks for the useful contributions lifted97ranger.

Last edited by 07B2300; 08-31-2007 at 09:14 PM.
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