Idle Rev and Surge - then stall - Ranger-Forums - The Ultimate Ford Ranger Resource


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  #1  
Old 02-23-2014
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Idle Rev and Surge - then stall

Hello all,

I am a noob to this forum. But I have been reading, and have learned quite a bit. Without going into a 10 page rundown - here are the basics.
Ford Ranger 2002 - 3.0V6 - 2wd.
Recieved this truck from a firend. It would not start. No fuel pressure at the manifold. I changed the pump and filter. Would barely run, and would not go over about 45 on the road. I pulled the cat and found it detroyed. I changed the cat. Now it ran, not bad on the highway, would not idle well at all. CEL was miss-fire related. I also noted the brand new cat was red hot. After many parts and much reading, I finally completed a compression check - number one cylinder was dead.

I have changed both heads - new gaskets - new plugs and wires - new CPS & sensor (Which I was sure to install at TDC @ 38 degrees from center line) - new IAC - new TPS - cleaned the TB - cleaned the intake - removed all injectors and sent them for cleaning and reinstalled with new seals. New intake gaskets upper and lower. I replaced the 90 degree vacuum boot the connects to the driver side valve cover. I checked the main line from the booster - and replaced the EGR line that connects to the intake behind the TB. I verified the vacuum line to the cruise and the fuel pressure regulator are intact. I changed both 02 sensors.

At this point - you start the truck and it fires right up - revs too about 3k - then drops right down and stalls. All previous CEL codes were cleared when I pulled the battery to change the heads. At this time it will not run long enough to set any codes.

What did I miss?

Thanks in advance for the help.
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  #2  
Old 02-23-2014
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I neglected to clarify - new coil pack too. I verified proper gap - and I installed Motorcraft plugs. The only item I have not messed with are the Crank Sensor and the EGR valve. Or at least that is all I can think of. The heads WERE trashed - and it was number 6 cylinder that was dead - not number one. I am running about 120/130 psi on the compression test on all cylinders now...
That should fix the issue with the cat glowing red too - I just need to get it running again and verify CEL codes are gone.
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Old 02-23-2014
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First, "new" no longer means "it works", years ago a new part worked, period.
Now the term "new" means "never been tested", Quality Control is pretty much gone, manufacturers offer warranties, so any "new" part is suspect, and should not be considered working until tested.

Open air cleaner and use a towel to block air intake tube, try to start, this will tell you if engine is sucking in air from another location, a vacuum leak.
You will often hear it if its the only source of air.
I often release pressure on serpentine belt so no fan or accessory noise, cold engine will run fine for a few minutes without water pump.

Check TPS sensor connector.
If you have a volt meter pierce the center TPS wire with a sewing needle, with key on/engine off, test voltage on that wire, should be just under 1voltDC, .7-.9volts is spec
TPS sends 1 volt to computer for idle(closed throttle) then voltage should go up steadily to 4.7volts at WOT(wide open throttle), you can test that by manually opening and closing throttle, nice and steady increase and decrease is what you want to see.

The 3,000rpm could be the REV limiter kicking in.

Unplug MAF sensor and see how it starts

Not sure the IAC valve could get engine up to 3,000rpms, generally it can get engine up to only 2,000rpms, if opened all the way
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Old 02-24-2014
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Thank You - I tend to agree, some of these parts are "New" as in purchased - but I suspect a junk reman could be a big part of this. I will check the items above and get back this weekend. I appreciate the assistance. This truck should run sweet with the new heads and fresh tune up. Makes good compression now. I am frustrated that it wont! It was NOT doing this before I changed these items. This is a new symptom. It stands to reason something I did is driving this.
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  #5  
Old 03-02-2014
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Ok.

The TPS checks exactly as you stated. Key on. Middle wire pierced. Just below one volt. Wide open throttle is just under 4.6.

I swapped out the new IAC with the old. No difference. I tried starting one at a time with all sensors pulled. No difference in any. I can't find any obvious vacuum leaks.

Truck starts and jumps to 2000 rpm and dies. Tried to regulate itself but stalls first. When you has it up it will try to maintain but again the rpm falls and it stalls.
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Old 03-02-2014
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With MAF sensor unplugged it did the same?

That is a forced "open loop" so computer is only using CKP sensor for spark/injector timing and RPM.
And it runs from a preset table for fuel/air mix, no other sensors are used.
IAC valve is used but it is a control, it is used to set base cold idle of 1,000rpm in open loop

Do you have a way to test fuel pressure at the rail?
Should be 65psi with key on and then stay at 65psi after engine starts, after engine stalls it should stay above 55psi

Ford's Returnless fuel system uses a check valve(back flow preventer) in the fuel pump to hold 65psi at the fuel rail when pump is off, which it is most of the time.
The computer runs the pump for 2 seconds when key is first turned on, then turns pump on and off based on RPM and throttle position.
Wondering if you are losing pressure.
Also at the end of the fuel rail is a Pressure Damper, it will have a vacuum line attached check that vacuum line for gas smell, should not be any gas there or smell of gas.

Last edited by RonD; 03-02-2014 at 01:56 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-03-2014
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Yes, the MAF being unplugged made no change.
I am thinking I need to go back to square one and be certain I did not install the Can Synch in the exhaust stroke. I also need to verify the firing order. OR I mean the order of the wires on the coil pack.

I did check the fuel dampner before I changed the injectors, and after I changed the fuel pump... But I will check it again. I will also reconnect my fuel gauge. Again, it WAS good. I will take another reading.

Thanks for the guidance.
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  #8  
Old 03-08-2014
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Fuel pressure on my gauge read at 55 with koeo - and at 60 with engine running. I reindexed the cam synchro again - I was at TDC on number one, and I verified the firing order by finding the original coil pack that had a motorcraft label.

At this point the engine will start. It "Hunts" for idle. It seems to be a fight between the rev limiter and the IAC. It tries to idle, but it lops up and down. When you gas it - it starts backfiring out the intake. When you catch the RPM's up - right below 3000, you can hear it misfiring in the exhaust. Off the gas, the idle drops right down, and backfires out the intake. It will run some and then stall. The engine is jumping all over the place when it tries to idle.

This seems like a straight up timing problem to me. But I admit I am at a loss. I have read in the manual and on line how to index the CPS/Synch and I am pretty certain I have it where it is supposed to be.

I am wondering if the engine jumped time? Or if I have a problem with the valve train?

Even with it running for a few minutes at a time - no CEL - and no flashing CEL. Swapped out the old IAC with new - no difference.
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Old 03-09-2014
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Fuel pressure looks OK.

CPS doesn't effect base spark timing, it is for the fuel injectors.

CKP(crank position) sensor is the "big kahuna" for computer and engine operation.
No CKP = no spark and no fuel, so not your issue but just a heads up on operation.
CKP sets spark timing, and injector timing if CPS signal is cut off or deemed 'unstable' by computer.

If you think CPS is an issue disconnect it and start engine, you will get a CEL but computer can run engine just fine without a CPS, MPG is lower but that's the only effect.

Compression test would tell you if valve timing was off, compression drops off pretty fast if valves are not synced to crank.

New coil?
Cylinders are numbered
3 6
2 5
1 4
Front

Coil is wired
3 4
2 6
1 5
Front

Wiring harness connector is between 1 and 2 on some and 2 and 3 on other coils
In this thread is a picture of a 2005 Ranger 3.0l Coil and wiring:
https://www.ranger-forums.com/2-9l-3...-order-117597/
And as mentioned repair manuals often get this wrong

1, 2 and 3 are pretty straight forward, but check them
I would pull off #4 wire from coil and trace it to #4 cylinder, same with #6 and #5

It is very very easy to mis-wire this
#4 I get right most of the time, 5 and 6 get reversed all the time for me.

Can you reinstall original coil?
Maybe new coil is firing out of order, i.e. coil packs 1 and 3 reversed on connector

Last edited by RonD; 03-09-2014 at 01:38 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2014
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Here is what I did on Sunday.

I pulled the Cam synch again - reindexed again to 38 degrees - no change. I saw on line where another guy with a 3.0 posted instructions to index cam synch at 75 degrees. I tried that - no change. At this point I pulled the pin and let it fly. I pulled the intake off, pulled the valve covers etc. Double checked the torque on all the rocker arms. Set to 25 pounds foot as per the manual. Took a real close look at the rockers - no cracks or deformation obvious. Sealed them back up. I did note on the intake gasket - it seemed pretty "Flat" to me. Since I had it off, and since I was at a loss - I doubled up on the gasket. I had changed to a flat gasket versus the O-rings. I read on line that the o-rings are problematic. It just so happens that the gasket kit I bought for the top end had both the flat and o-rings - so I added the o-rings. I reassembled the whole thing and fired it up. I "Think" I had an intake leak driving the after firing...

It ran, not well - but only one chuff out of the intake. After this, I didnt notice backfiring or intake (After) fire. It ran smoother at idle. Engine not bouncing as much at all. Sounded 120 percent better. Reved up pretty well too.

After about 5 minutes at idle - I got the CEL for the Cam Synch circuit. I changed out the Cam synch sensor, cleared the code and ran it again - same result. OK, then I realized I had the synch still at the 75 degree position. I reindexed again to the 38 degree position as per the manual. I lost the CEL light, but gained a very rough idle.

It idles below 1K on the tach, it seems to stumble. I changed out the Idle Air valve with the old one - no difference. Double checked for vacuum problems, no difference. And no CEL light after running for 20 minutes and the engine warmed up. It will idle - just lopes all over - almost stalls - catches itself - revs up - and repeats.

I took it for a spin. No power at all. At 20 MPH when you floor the gas the engine almost stalls and then picks up. It does not downshift gears to get up and go - just slowly tries to raise RPM. I came to a stop light and it stalled and would not restart unless I floored the gas and dropped it from nuetral into drive to get it moving and back to the driveway.

I am making progress - but I am not there yet. I am leaning more and more towards the Cam Synch as a timing issue. I simply do not know what I am not doing right on this install. The FORD manual I am using really does not give you a straight forward procedure. It just shows a picture of the orientation and gives a 38 degree pitch for the location. Everything else I am going off of comes from posts on this forum.

I included a picture of the crank at TDC. I am using a TDC whistle to make sure I get it dead on. You can see that at TDC the two holes in the crank line right up with the Crank sensor. I assume that is this way for a reason - as an indication. The whisle verifies I am at TDC and not on the exhaust.

The firing order - SHOULD - be correct as shown by the picture of the old coil. I am using this as a guideline as I have seen so many other posts with different configurations. Again, the ford manual gives you the standard firing order - and you can also see this clearly on the manifold - but does not tell you the order of the wires on the coil. The replacment coil I have has NO marks on it.

I can swap out the old coil - that is easy and quick. I am also going to pull all the plugs and clean them - and do yet another compression check next weekend. I have to be close - it is running better - but it sure seems like the timing is not right - yet.

I am wondering as well - does the cam synch need to be a 38 degrees DIRECTLY on TDC? Or does it need to be slightly advanced? Could that minor difference in orientation actually drive this timing to be off? According to what I have read, and what I understand about its function - as long as the probe is in the center and the engine is at TDC - it really should not matter what the oreintation is on the block? It needs to be on the sensor at TDC - right?

I also posted a pic of the Cam Synch - old and new. Before I pulled the intake I put in the old cam synch just to see if I missed something obvious. Maybe there was a slight difference I missed - etc. Beyond the engine squeak that returned with the old synch - it ran exactly the same.

I appreciate your help with this - I must be close.
Attached Thumbnails
Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-photo-1.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-photo-2.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-photo-3.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-photo-4.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-photo-5.jpg  

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  #11  
Old 03-22-2014
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Update -

I was not able to work on it for the last two weeks. It has been a long and wet winter here.

This AM - I fired it up. No problem. Ran well, no CEL. I put it in drive and pulled away. Very "doggy" slow to spool up - no power. Got to the bottom of the hill and it stalled. It will not restart. I tried the usual suspects, no joy - a buddy helped me tow it home.

I figured I would go back to basics:

Fuel -

With starting fluid - It WILL run for a few seconds - then it stalls - and backfires out the intake. More fluid - same result.

Fuel pressure at the rail is steady at 55/60. It does hold pressure - for about 5 hours now - still at 55.

Checked the vacuum line on the regulator - line is intact - no fuel came out when removed.

With KOEO - I show twelve volts at the injector connector. With a test light on the other side of the connector Key On while cranking - the test light blinks on and off - injectors ARE getting a signal.

So, this tells me I have fuel pressure, and my injectors are being told to fire.

Spark -

It WILL run on starting fluid. When it is running - it seems to run well.
Regardless - I verified I have 12 volts at the connector to the coil pack with KOEO.
I also swapped in the old coil pack - no difference.

I checked the Crank sensor - it ohms out at 800ish. When I check the connector KOEO I get about 1.5 volts.

So, as near as I can tell -

* I replaced the CAM sensor - and while settng up TDC on number one cylinder, all the marks line up. And from what I am reading - even if this is all FUBAR - the engine should still start and run - in fact it was running until today.
* Spark appears to be working as advertised.
* Fuel appears to be working - yet it will only run on start fluid???
* This all started with a bad cat convertor - however - again - it runs on start fluid. If the cat went out again - or one of the upline cats are bad - it should not run at all??
* Crank sensor system appears to be in order. Sensor is getting voltage - and sensor is ohming out where it is supposed to.

I am at a loss. Fuel - Timing?
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Old 03-22-2014
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Took interest in your thread a few weeks back as my 92 ranger is doing pretty much this same thing. Haven't been able to work as much on it as I'm a college student learning as I go.

I haven't been able to fix it yet but here's what I've tried and what I've found:

Started back with temp gauge overheating, replaced the water pump after three attempts due it being a pain to get to in the 3.0L model. Only to find out the old one was pretty much still in tact after still being the original. Oh well, still replaced it and the gasket and carried on.

Anti-freeze color when it emptied was close to coffee color. Fun, still has a leak to this day just keep it topped off. Checked fumes and what not, not burning it out so least the head isn't cracked.

Cranked up the idle a few rpms, not sure to what as the 92 doesn't have the gauge. starts and stays high, but will die after a while.

Replaced the air idle valve and gasket after reading through a few forms that it could be the problem. Picked up a little more get go, but still stalls out at start.

Few months passed by seems to stay on at start, not sure what changed. Turned the idle down a bit and it stays running. Dies after a long while but not bad.

Replaced serpentine belt and and idle pulley, bearings were shot and wasn't sure how old the belt was. This changed almost nothing. Forgot to mention it sounds like a sewing machine when ya drive it. Bearings in the belt tension-er are still shot but it ended up being a little quieter.

Truck has this weird issue where it jerk when it gets up to about 75ish mph but it happens every once and a while. The check engine light has been on for a few years now but is how I inherited the truck and it hasn't been major issues, can't check due to lack of equipment. ABS in back is also out but I disliked it so I never bothered fixing it.

Cowoker advised changing the fuel pump to see if that helped at all.

Removed the bed of the truck and removed the hanger assem. Attached a new fuel pump and ended up jbwelding the fuel bobber overnight as it had a leak and was the cause of the fuel gauge not working. Also Jb welded a torx bit to the idle tension-er screw as the last attempt to remove it failed with the head becoming stripped.

At this point the bed is off overnight gas tank and lines covered so debris don't get in, air intake pipe is off so that jb weld doesn't where its not supposed to on the tension-er. Put everything back together in the morning and start it up. Nice fat old chirping sound due to air in the fuel line. Turned it off let the pump run for a bit to get the air out. Start it up again, runs and dies harder than it did before. Fuel filter and strainer are replaced as well.

As of now waiting on bearings to show up for the FR tire as they went out last week.

The only thing I've found so far is that after driving for a bit it seems to be able to idle in neutral and drive with no issues. Not sure if there is an initial pressure issue here or not.

Hope there's something in this that helps.

I Have enjoyed reading what you've been able to find with your truck
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Old 03-22-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahabiam View Post
Update -

I was not able to work on it for the last two weeks. It has been a long and wet winter here.

This AM - I fired it up. No problem. Ran well, no CEL. I put it in drive and pulled away. Very "doggy" slow to spool up - no power. Got to the bottom of the hill and it stalled. It will not restart. I tried the usual suspects, no joy - a buddy helped me tow it home.

I figured I would go back to basics:

Fuel -

With starting fluid - It WILL run for a few seconds - then it stalls - and backfires out the intake. More fluid - same result.

Fuel pressure at the rail is steady at 55/60. It does hold pressure - for about 5 hours now - still at 55.

Checked the vacuum line on the regulator - line is intact - no fuel came out when removed.

With KOEO - I show twelve volts at the injector connector. With a test light on the other side of the connector Key On while cranking - the test light blinks on and off - injectors ARE getting a signal.

So, this tells me I have fuel pressure, and my injectors are being told to fire.

Spark -

It WILL run on starting fluid. When it is running - it seems to run well.
Regardless - I verified I have 12 volts at the connector to the coil pack with KOEO.
I also swapped in the old coil pack - no difference.

I checked the Crank sensor - it ohms out at 800ish. When I check the connector KOEO I get about 1.5 volts.

So, as near as I can tell -

* I replaced the CAM sensor - and while settng up TDC on number one cylinder, all the marks line up. And from what I am reading - even if this is all FUBAR - the engine should still start and run - in fact it was running until today.
* Spark appears to be working as advertised.
* Fuel appears to be working - yet it will only run on start fluid???
* This all started with a bad cat convertor - however - again - it runs on start fluid. If the cat went out again - or one of the upline cats are bad - it should not run at all??
* Crank sensor system appears to be in order. Sensor is getting voltage - and sensor is ohming out where it is supposed to.

I am at a loss. Fuel - Timing?
Plugged exhaust will make engine slow to respond but it would still start.
If possible have someone put their hand over the tail pipe while you start engine with starting fluid.

What popped into my head was bad gas, more water than usual in the gas.


I was told in another post that lack of CPS signal could cause a no start, we determined that perhaps the 'engineers' had added that to the software as a "virtual" oil pump sensor, no CPS signal = no oil pump = no start.

But you have spark so that wouldn't make any sense.
You could pull a spark plug, if tip is wet you have fuel coming in.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2014
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Lack of CPS should give me a CEL light too though correct? When I had the cam out of synch it gave me that code. After reinserting yet again it went away and ran the best that it has since this started. Will check it again though.
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Old 03-24-2014
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Yes, CPS pulse not in sync with CKP sensor pulse will often cause CEL, so probably not your issue at this time.
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Old 04-09-2014
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It finally stopped raining, and the sun was out. So I was able to dedicate an afternoon looking all of this over again. The bottom line was: Timing was good - at TDC all the lines/marks appear to be where they need to be. Ignition is good - it still runs on starting fluid. No intake concerns. Exhaust is still an unknown... It passes the back pressure test but that does not always mean the cats are in good order. The computer IS firing the injectors.

So I went for the basics and started to check the gas. I had the tank out and changed the pump. Afterwards I put in about 5 gallons of premium. Then it sat - for weeks while I overhauled the top end. I didnt suspect to find anything.

However, look at these photos - uhh no wonder it will not run. How did this happen? I siphoned all I could out of the tank. Then I opened up the fuel rail - removed the shrader - and connected a line to it. Used the pump to clean out the rest of the tank. I added some fresh gas - and vroom. Fired up. Ran like garbage for the first few miles. The more I drove it - the better it ran. I got gutsy and took it to the gas station and topped it off with premium. I found a rather large gas leak right after it was topped off. I dont know what happened yet - but obviously if fuel is running out - then water can run back in.

I drove it for at least 30 miles. First it threw a flashing OD light and a BANK 1 LEAN code. I reset it. Then it threw a CYL 6 MISFIRE code when I had it under load going up a hill. I reset it. The remaining 20 miles were perfect. The idle was good - the power was decent - and no more CEL codes. It was late in the day and I wrapped it up. I planned on driving the truck to work for the first time.

However, I got up - and it was pouring. I didnt know if was going to get that bad or I would have covered up the space between the bed and the cab to keep water off the tank. I figured - it cant be that bad. The tank was FULL last night. I hopped in - got 10 miles down the road - and it started spitting and losing power. Then it gave me the CYLINDER 6 MISFIRE code again. Took it home and parked it.

Somehow I developed a massive opneing in the tank - and water is getting in my gas. Now I have a scent - I will be hunting that down this weekend. I will let you know what I find. My only real worry is that the CYL 6 code is NOT gas related. That was the whole reason I started this odyssey. Before I panic - I will handle the gas tank problem - drain it all again - and try running on some fresh hi-test.
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Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0475.jpg  
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Old 04-09-2014
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For some reason the upload is failing at the moment. I will put the rest of the pics up when it allows it.
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Old 04-09-2014
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i read somewhere that 2001 to 2003 rangers fuel tanks will develop hair line cracks at the heat welded seams allowing excess water into the fuel tanks

not sure where , but i guess somewhere around the fuel sender or fuel pump mounting hole
due to excess torque placed on the mounting bolts
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Old 04-10-2014
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Here is the other shots. Today, they were happy to upload.
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Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0475.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0476.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0478.jpg  
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  #20  
Old 04-10-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese_man View Post
i read somewhere that 2001 to 2003 rangers fuel tanks will develop hair line cracks at the heat welded seams allowing excess water into the fuel tanks

not sure where , but i guess somewhere around the fuel sender or fuel pump mounting hole
due to excess torque placed on the mounting bolts

So, you mean the heat welded portions of the plastic tank right? This tank is all thick poly plastic. I will check it out for cracks for sure.
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Old 04-10-2014
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something along those lines YES!

something about a crack that develops between the fuel sender and pump holes ???
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Old 04-14-2014
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Some of the reason behind all this... Number 6 cylinder valves shot. The rest were not in very good shape either.
Attached Thumbnails
Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0376.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0387.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0398.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0402.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0404.jpg  

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  #23  
Old 04-14-2014
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Pulled the tank again.
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Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0498.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0499.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0500.jpg   Idle Rev and Surge - then stall-img_0508.jpg  
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Old 04-14-2014
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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Ok, I pulled the tank again this weekend. It was full, and that was not fun. You can see in some of the pics above, the fuel is running right out of the tank around the pump. I pulled the pump, emptied the tank, and checked the inside all over - it looks good. I don't see any cracks. I found out right away that the seal on the top of the tank was pretty flat. I ended up using the old stock seal - and ditching the one that came with the fuel pump. For good measure I also silicone the hell out of the pump cover and the threads on the locking ring. With everything back together, I have put just under 80 miles on it - with no issue. No CEL light. Decent power, runs cool. While I was on a roll, I also used two welding magnets to get the oil pressure gauge around the correct way. It was stuck under the peg. I wired up a cheap dome light, lubed up the seats and reset the connections for the air bag light, and lubed up the doors to turn off the "Door Ajar" warnings. So far, so good. The real test will be tomorrow - it is going to pour again. If she does not take on any more water - then we are good.
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Old 04-14-2014
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 19
The ONLY thing that I need to play with is the idle. I read someplace that it should be between 800 and 1000 RPM. It is actually around 600 and it makes the engine jump a bit at idle only. I am not sure what else to mess with on this beyond the idle air motor - and I have changed this. However it was also a cheap aftermarket - it may be as simple as that.

I want to thank everybody for the help - I have learned quite a bit. Once I am satisfied with the engine work - I will move on to the ball joints, tie rods, shocks, etc... Ill send some pics when I get all this done.
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