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No start, no crank

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Old May 2, 2018
  #1  
sunroofsareg*y's Avatar
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From: norfolk
No start, no crank

2002, 4.0, standard
Like the title states, with just one click at the turn of the key--no series of clicks in rapid succession.
battery checked out
started passed bench test (I was so sure it was the starter I had O'reilly's bring one in)
Didn't think of the starter relay until after taking the starter out and then doing some research, so I'll check that tomorrow.
I've since checked the inertia switch, I checked all the fuses before anything to start.
Waiting to borrow a decent jack again to get back under there and give it another crack tomorrow.
I'm thinking of buying the new starter and putting that it just so that I KNOW for sure that isn't the issue.
What do you guys think?
I'm thinking about getting one of those test light things and poking around with that. I've never had to diagnose or repair electrical issues before so I'm looking for some input.
Thanks!

Update:
Originally Posted by sunroofsareg*y
For anyone else reading this thread with a 4x4, get it on a lift, and slowly jack the engine up with a tall jack. There is a little bit of play in the engine mounts, just enough for you to skooch it up in order to slide the starter in and out. I was able to somehow finagle it out but couldn't get it back in without the nudging the engine up a tad. I straddled a piece of 2x4 across the oil pan and the transmission and jacked it up from there giving me just enough room to squeeze it in between the oil pan and the transfer case.
 

Last edited by sunroofsareg*y; May 9, 2018 at 02:17 PM.
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Old May 2, 2018
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From: norfolk
Just saw some video of a guy jumping the contacts on his starter relay with a screw driver. Maybe that's it. I think since I've got this jack to use for the time being, I'll throw the old starter back in and give that a whirl. What do you guys think?
 
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Old May 3, 2018
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You won't have a fender mounted starter relay/solenoid in a 2002, which is what people "jumped" with a screw driver.

Since you have a manual trans have you tried to "bump start" the vehicle?

Does the Theft light on the dash work, does it come on with the key and then go off?

If not then you could have a PATS(passive anti-theft system) issue
Theft light will flash rapidly if there is a PATS issue, but if bulb is burned out...............

When you turn on the key, you should hear Fuel Pump in the gas tank run for 2 seconds, each time you turn the key from OFF to ON it will run for 2 seconds.
It is not quiet, you can hear it hum from inside the cab, turn radio down, lol
Repeat key off/on until you can confirm you hear the pump, that means PATS is probably not the issue, if you can't hear it then PATS might be the problem.

There are 2 starter relays
One is on the starter motor itself, starter solenoid/relay combo, it will have a smaller Yellow wire hooked to it, this wire comes from "the other" starter relay
The other starter relay is in the Engine fuse box, its part of the PATS setup

There is also a Fuse involved, #24 in cab fuse box, 7.5amp
And a Neutral switch, with manual trans thats a Clutch Switch

When you turn the key to START 12volts runs thru fuse #24 to Clutch switch,
if clutch pedal is down all the way then that 12volts goes thru clutch switch to Starter Relay in engine fuse box.
IF(big IF) PATS system has recognized the Key in ignition, then that Starter Relay will "Click" Closed,
if PATS doesn't recognize the Key then relay won't close and no starter motor.

So have someone turn key to START while you have your finger on that starter relay in the engine fuse box, you should feel it "click" closed
If not then either relay is bad, fuse is bad or PATS is the problem

Clutch switch is a maybe, they can break just not all that common, blown fuse or bad relay would be more common.
Run your hand up clutch pedal's arm, you will feel the Pushrod, the clutch switch is on that pushrod, it clamps onto it, make sure it hasn't popped off

When Starter Relay in the engine fuse box Closes, it sends 12volts to the starter motors relay on the Yellow wire
When starter motor relay closes, solenoid pushes starter gear out to engage Ring Gear on flywheel then starter motor activates

So if you give yellow wire terminal on starter motor 12volts starter motor will activate IF it is OK.
But MAKE SURE truck is in NEUTRAL!!!!!!!!!!

This bypasses ALL safety features
If key is on then engine should start, if it doesn't then PATS is for sure the problem, PATS also disables Fuel Pump and Fuel Injectors
 

Last edited by RonD; May 3, 2018 at 10:43 AM.
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Old May 3, 2018
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sunroofsareg*y's Avatar
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
You won't have a fender mounted starter relay/solenoid in a 2002, which is what people "jumped" with a screw driver.

Since you have a manual trans have you tried to "bump start" the vehicle?
This is what I wish I would have done before removing the starter. I just didn't have a buddy around atm and was feeling very confident that it was the starter.

Originally Posted by RonD
Does the Theft light on the dash work, does it come on with the key and then go off?
That I unfortunately didn't look out for either. Again, I was SURE it was the starter smh.

Originally Posted by RonD
If not then you could have a PATS(passive anti-theft system) issue
Theft light will flash rapidly if there is a PATS issue, but if bulb is burned out...............
Yeah, maybe their's another way to check that if the bulb is burned out? I'm still gonna recheck my fuses again.

Originally Posted by RonD
When you turn on the key, you should hear Fuel Pump in the gas tank run for 2 seconds, each time you turn the key from OFF to ON it will run for 2 seconds.
It is not quiet, you can hear it hum from inside the cab, turn radio down, lol
Repeat key off/on until you can confirm you hear the pump, that means PATS is probably not the issue, if you can't hear it then PATS might be the problem.
I didn't pay super close attention to that but I'm pretty sure it did. I will certainly double-check it. Could it maybe be the fuel pump itself?

Originally Posted by RonD
There are 2 starter relays
One is on the starter motor itself, starter solenoid/relay combo, it will have a smaller Yellow wire hooked to it, this wire comes from "the other" starter relay
The other starter relay is in the Engine fuse box, its part of the PATS setup

There is also a Fuse involved, #24 in cab fuse box, 7.5amp
And a Neutral switch, with manual trans thats a Clutch Switch

When you turn the key to START 12volts runs thru fuse #24 to Clutch switch,
if clutch pedal is down all the way then that 12volts goes thru clutch switch to Starter Relay in engine fuse box.
IF(big IF) PATS system has recognized the Key in ignition, then that Starter Relay will "Click" Closed,
if PATS doesn't recognize the Key then relay won't close and no starter motor.

So have someone turn key to START while you have your finger on that starter relay in the engine fuse box, you should feel it "click" closed
If not then either relay is bad, fuse is bad or PATS is the problem

Clutch switch is a maybe, they can break just not all that common, blown fuse or bad relay would be more common.
Run your hand up clutch pedal's arm, you will feel the Pushrod, the clutch switch is on that pushrod, it clamps onto it, make sure it hasn't popped off

When Starter Relay in the engine fuse box Closes, it sends 12volts to the starter motors relay on the Yellow wire
When starter motor relay closes, solenoid pushes starter gear out to engage Ring Gear on flywheel then starter motor activates

So if you give yellow wire terminal on starter motor 12volts starter motor will activate IF it is OK.
But MAKE SURE truck is in NEUTRAL!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the breakdown! That makes sense and is easy to follow. I think I'm gonna pick up a mulitmeter asap to do this. I wasn't able to get a hold of my buddy's floor jack so I may need to spring for one myself (2-ton'er just doesn't lift the truck high enough).

Originally Posted by RonD
This bypasses ALL safety features
If key is on then engine should start, if it doesn't then PATS is for sure the problem, PATS also disables Fuel Pump and Fuel Injectors
Well if I can isolate it down to a PATS issue than I'll tackle that then. Thanks again!
I'll post as soon as I get back out and make these checks. I'm thinking it could even be a bad wire or cable too, which would be really annoying.
 
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Old May 3, 2018
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Bad fuel pump would cause a No Start, but not a No Crank

To reset Theft/keyless entry system, just in case

Remove positive battery cable
Open drivers door, leave it open
Turn key to RUN(on)
reconnect battery positive cable, horn may honk a few times, so mind your head on the hood, lol.

Theft system should now be reset, this is a poorman's method, not the Ford way $$
This is not technically a PATS reset, just keyless entry reset
 

Last edited by RonD; May 3, 2018 at 12:19 PM.
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Old May 3, 2018
  #6  
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
Bad fuel pump would cause a No Start, but not a No Crank

To reset Theft/keyless entry system, just in case

Remove positive battery cable
Open drivers door, leave it open
Turn key to RUN(on)
reconnect battery positive cable, horn may honk a few times, so mind your head on the hood, lol.

Theft system should now be reset, this is a poorman's method, not the Ford way $$
This is not technically a PATS reset, just keyless entry reset
I don't have keyless entry, so is this really necessary/worthwhile?
 
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Old May 3, 2018
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I doubt it if no keyless entry, so no alarm

I assume you disconnected the battery before removing or install starter motor, that time should be enough to rest computer(PCM)
 
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Old May 4, 2018
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
I doubt it if no keyless entry, so no alarm

I assume you disconnected the battery before removing or install starter motor, that time should be enough to rest computer(PCM)
Yup, been disconnected since Monday. I'm back and forth on whether or not I wanna throw a new starter in regardless, what do you think? It's not that expensive...
 
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Old May 4, 2018
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Well they do wear out, and are a pain to change, so cost vs convenience I guess
You will have a workiong spare just in case, unless its an exchange required deal
 
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Old May 4, 2018
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
Well they do wear out, and are a pain to change, so cost vs convenience I guess
You will have a workiong spare just in case, unless its an exchange required deal
I don't know if it's required but there is a core refund. I was thinking the car already has 162k miles, why not just know that the starter will be good for the entire time I own it? Outside of that. picking up a decent jack here shortly but no multimeter yet. Going to reinstall a starter and the battery and T/S everything again and if I can't fix it then I'll get the multimeter. I was going to get a test light but I figured it would still light even if I was getting a lower voltage than required due a degraded wire.
 
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Old May 4, 2018
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Test light is fine, test it on battery first to see brightness, then if voltage is low on another circuit you can tell because it will be dimmer

Difference between 12 and 11 volts won't be much but also wouldn't matter to circuit, difference between 12 and 8volt is noticeably dimmer

Volt/ohm meter is better long term, has more uses
 
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Old May 4, 2018
  #12  
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From: norfolk
Update: I CANNOT GET THE STARTER BACK IN!
I finagled it out between the transfer case and oil pan somehow but can't get it back in! I think it may have something to do with the torsion lift the previous owner did but I'm not sure. On the plus side, got my buddy's truck running so he can give me a slow tug over to the auto skills center on base so I can get it on a lift. That will hopefully help me get this m-effer back in. What do you guys think?
 
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Old May 5, 2018
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Yes, on 4x4s it is a tight squeeze, you have to turn it around and wiggle it thru.
It came out so will go back in, just have to find the right way to turn it
 
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Old May 5, 2018
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
Yes, on 4x4s it is a tight squeeze, you have to turn it around and wiggle it thru.
It came out so will go back in, just have to find the right way to turn it
I've given up until I can get it on a lift. I decided to purchase the new unit to ensure that I NEVER EVER have to do this again. On the brightside, helped my buddy out with his truck a bunch the last couple days and picked up a headliner at the junkyard for next to nothing for my own truck.
 
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Old May 8, 2018
  #15  
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From: norfolk
Update

So I installed the new starter and it started up like new. So it very well may have been the starter, even though it passed the bench test. I'm thinking it could also be some sort of issue with a ground or pos. wire heading to the starter intermittently. I'm happy for now, though.
 
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Old May 9, 2018
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Good work

Thanks for posting the fix
 
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Old May 9, 2018
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From: norfolk
Originally Posted by RonD
Good work

Thanks for posting the fix
Thanks to you and everyone else for the replies.

For anyone else reading this thread with a 4x4, get it on a lift, and slowly jack the engine up with a tall jack. There is a little bit of play in the engine mounts, just enough for you to skooch it up in order to slide the starter in and out. I was able to somehow finagle it out but couldn't get it back in without the nudging the engine up a tad. I straddled a piece of 2x4 across the oil pan and the transmission and jacked it up from there giving me just enough room to squeeze it in between the oil pan and the transfer case.
 
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Old May 10, 2018
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From: norfolk
Lastly, for anyone with a no start no crank, my starter passed a bench test. I was so sure it was the starter that I kicked myself when it passed, mainly because of how big of a pita it was to take it out of my 4x4. I decided that, given the truck had 160k miles on it, I would replace the starter anyways because I NEVER wanted to do this job again. The plan was to then take voltage measurements where necessary, check the relay, etc, (which I should have done first) after installing the new starter. In my situation, again, I want to stress how much of a bitch it was to get my starter in and out of my 4x4. The issue is the transfer case getting in the way where it attaches to the tranny. But...

IT WORKED.

Even though my OG starter passed the bench test, replacing the it with a new starter fixed the issue and it has started up better than when I bought it ever since.

Tip: I didn't do it but aside from checking for the starter relay functionality, I imagine testing for 12v right at the starter will let you know if it's a starter issue in a no start/no crank scenario in the future. If you're getting 12v right at the starter and it won't start your motor, than you need a new starter.
 
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Old May 11, 2018
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Good work

Thanks for the update and wise advise
 
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