No Start Condition
#1
05-31-2016
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: fallbrook, ca
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No Start Condition
2004 Ranger Edge 3.0 Liter, 88,000 miles on it.
I'm trying to troubleshoot a no-start. It turns over fine, it has spark. The inertia switch is in, and it is working. That is, I can shake the switch to dislodge the ball bearing inside, and the circuit disconnects.
I don't hear the fuel pump turning on when I turn the ignition switch to "on." However, before I go through great pain to replace the fuel pump, I'd like to rule out everything else.
The fuel pump fuse is good. The fuel pump relay is good (replaced it with 2 others in the same box; they are all identical).
Schraeder valve on fuel rail squirted gas when I pushed it. It could have been residual pressure. I have not tested the fuel pressure yet (have to borrow the gauge).
I noticed that the power going into (and out of) the inertia switch is 6.6 volts. Is that normal?
Usually, with inertia switch tripped, I can get the engine to run briefly with starter fluid in the air intake. But not this time.
Any ideas? Fuel pump module? Where is it, on my truck?
I'm trying to troubleshoot a no-start. It turns over fine, it has spark. The inertia switch is in, and it is working. That is, I can shake the switch to dislodge the ball bearing inside, and the circuit disconnects.
I don't hear the fuel pump turning on when I turn the ignition switch to "on." However, before I go through great pain to replace the fuel pump, I'd like to rule out everything else.
The fuel pump fuse is good. The fuel pump relay is good (replaced it with 2 others in the same box; they are all identical).
Schraeder valve on fuel rail squirted gas when I pushed it. It could have been residual pressure. I have not tested the fuel pressure yet (have to borrow the gauge).
I noticed that the power going into (and out of) the inertia switch is 6.6 volts. Is that normal?
Usually, with inertia switch tripped, I can get the engine to run briefly with starter fluid in the air intake. But not this time.
Any ideas? Fuel pump module? Where is it, on my truck?
#2
05-31-2016
With key on inertia switch will show 6 to 7 volts but have no amps, thats from the computer monitor circuit.
Hook a jumper wire from battery "+" to inertia switch, you should hear fuel pump come on, if you don't then pump is bad.
Wire from inertia switch runs directly to fuel pump
OR, if you look here: Automotive Relays - Electric Circuit
You will see the slot lay out of Fuel pump relay socket
Pull out fuel pump relay.
Put a jumper from 30 to 87.
Fuel pump will come on if it is good.
BUT, if you added fuel manually to the intake and engine cranks but doesn't fire then you have a spark problem, or long shot, no compression
Hook a jumper wire from battery "+" to inertia switch, you should hear fuel pump come on, if you don't then pump is bad.
Wire from inertia switch runs directly to fuel pump
OR, if you look here: Automotive Relays - Electric Circuit
You will see the slot lay out of Fuel pump relay socket
Pull out fuel pump relay.
Put a jumper from 30 to 87.
Fuel pump will come on if it is good.
BUT, if you added fuel manually to the intake and engine cranks but doesn't fire then you have a spark problem, or long shot, no compression
#3
05-31-2016
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: fallbrook, ca
Posts: 14
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With key on inertia switch will show 6 to 7 volts but have no amps, thats from the computer monitor circuit.
Hook a jumper wire from battery "+" to inertia switch, you should hear fuel pump come on, if you don't then pump is bad.
Wire from inertia switch runs directly to fuel pump
OR, if you look here: Automotive Relays - Electric Circuit
You will see the slot lay out of Fuel pump relay socket
Pull out fuel pump relay.
Put a jumper from 30 to 87.
Fuel pump will come on if it is good.
BUT, if you added fuel manually to the intake and engine cranks but doesn't fire then you have a spark problem, or long shot, no compression
Hook a jumper wire from battery "+" to inertia switch, you should hear fuel pump come on, if you don't then pump is bad.
Wire from inertia switch runs directly to fuel pump
OR, if you look here: Automotive Relays - Electric Circuit
You will see the slot lay out of Fuel pump relay socket
Pull out fuel pump relay.
Put a jumper from 30 to 87.
Fuel pump will come on if it is good.
BUT, if you added fuel manually to the intake and engine cranks but doesn't fire then you have a spark problem, or long shot, no compression
#4
05-31-2016
The only other thing that can cause "instant death" of an engine, is CKP(crank position) sensor.
It is behind crank's main pulley, about 10:00
It reads a Tone Wheel, looks like a gear
When you crank the engine with the starter the CKP sensor will send timing pulses to the computer, this tells computer to "Start the spark", and to "Start the injectors"
Without this pulse computer literally doesn't know you are trying to start the engine.
Cam sensor is not the same thing.
And most would mention it but still have to ask, Anti-Theft Light on dash isn't flashing rapidly when you try to start engine right?
i.e. PATS issue so no fuel flow
It is behind crank's main pulley, about 10:00
It reads a Tone Wheel, looks like a gear
When you crank the engine with the starter the CKP sensor will send timing pulses to the computer, this tells computer to "Start the spark", and to "Start the injectors"
Without this pulse computer literally doesn't know you are trying to start the engine.
Cam sensor is not the same thing.
And most would mention it but still have to ask, Anti-Theft Light on dash isn't flashing rapidly when you try to start engine right?
i.e. PATS issue so no fuel flow
#5
05-31-2016
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: fallbrook, ca
Posts: 14
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The only other thing that can cause "instant death" of an engine, is CKP(crank position) sensor.
It is behind crank's main pulley, about 10:00
It reads a Tone Wheel, looks like a gear
When you crank the engine with the starter the CKP sensor will send timing pulses to the computer, this tells computer to "Start the spark", and to "Start the injectors"
Without this pulse computer literally doesn't know you are trying to start the engine.
Cam sensor is not the same thing.
And most would mention it but still have to ask, Anti-Theft Light on dash isn't flashing rapidly when you try to start engine right?
i.e. PATS issue so no fuel flow
It is behind crank's main pulley, about 10:00
It reads a Tone Wheel, looks like a gear
When you crank the engine with the starter the CKP sensor will send timing pulses to the computer, this tells computer to "Start the spark", and to "Start the injectors"
Without this pulse computer literally doesn't know you are trying to start the engine.
Cam sensor is not the same thing.
And most would mention it but still have to ask, Anti-Theft Light on dash isn't flashing rapidly when you try to start engine right?
i.e. PATS issue so no fuel flow
#6
06-01-2016
Most Locksmiths sell Ford PATS keys and they can of course cut the key to fit your door/ignition switch, using a working key.
BUT, the computer has to be "told" the new PATS key number, most locksmiths now have software that they can use on a laptop and connect to your vehicle to add new PATS key numbers to your computer.
If you have 2 working PATS keys then you can add new keys yourself.
And then there is the "Clone" option, locksmiths can "read" your working PATS key and then reprogram a blank PATS key with that working PATS number.
So you have 2 working keys but computer only see it as one key, same number, so this second PATS key can be used to drive the truck but not to add new keys.
BUT, the computer has to be "told" the new PATS key number, most locksmiths now have software that they can use on a laptop and connect to your vehicle to add new PATS key numbers to your computer.
If you have 2 working PATS keys then you can add new keys yourself.
And then there is the "Clone" option, locksmiths can "read" your working PATS key and then reprogram a blank PATS key with that working PATS number.
So you have 2 working keys but computer only see it as one key, same number, so this second PATS key can be used to drive the truck but not to add new keys.
#7
06-01-2016
Most Locksmiths sell Ford PATS keys and they can of course cut the key to fit your door/ignition switch, using a working key.
BUT, the computer has to be "told" the new PATS key number, most locksmiths now have software that they can use on a laptop and connect to your vehicle to add new PATS key numbers to your computer.
If you have 2 working PATS keys then you can add new keys yourself.
And then there is the "Clone" option, locksmiths can "read" your working PATS key number and then reprogram a blank PATS key with that working PATS number.
So you have 2 working keys but computer only see it as one key, same number, so this second PATS key can be used to drive the truck but not to add new keys.
How PATS works:
Most are familiar with bar codes now, computer reads the black and white bars with a laser light to ID a product, just 1's and 0's but a unique number.
There are also RF(radio frequency) bar codes, RFID tags.
Same principle as bar codes, 1's and 0's but can be read wirelessly.
Embedded in the head of a PATS key is an RFID tag with a unique number.
There is an antenna surrounding the ignition lock, called a transceiver, because it transmits then receives
When you turn on the key the PATS software sends out a blast of RF power thru transceiver, this gives the RFID tag enough power to transmit its unique number back to transceiver, so no batteries required in the key, the PATS software gets that number and compares it to a list of numbers programmed into it's memory at the factory, the key numbers vehicle was sold with.
It it finds a match then fuel system is started and Anti-Theft light goes out
It no match then no fuel and Anti-theft light flashes rapidly
BUT, the computer has to be "told" the new PATS key number, most locksmiths now have software that they can use on a laptop and connect to your vehicle to add new PATS key numbers to your computer.
If you have 2 working PATS keys then you can add new keys yourself.
And then there is the "Clone" option, locksmiths can "read" your working PATS key number and then reprogram a blank PATS key with that working PATS number.
So you have 2 working keys but computer only see it as one key, same number, so this second PATS key can be used to drive the truck but not to add new keys.
How PATS works:
Most are familiar with bar codes now, computer reads the black and white bars with a laser light to ID a product, just 1's and 0's but a unique number.
There are also RF(radio frequency) bar codes, RFID tags.
Same principle as bar codes, 1's and 0's but can be read wirelessly.
Embedded in the head of a PATS key is an RFID tag with a unique number.
There is an antenna surrounding the ignition lock, called a transceiver, because it transmits then receives
When you turn on the key the PATS software sends out a blast of RF power thru transceiver, this gives the RFID tag enough power to transmit its unique number back to transceiver, so no batteries required in the key, the PATS software gets that number and compares it to a list of numbers programmed into it's memory at the factory, the key numbers vehicle was sold with.
It it finds a match then fuel system is started and Anti-Theft light goes out
It no match then no fuel and Anti-theft light flashes rapidly
Last edited by RonD; 06-01-2016 at 11:47 AM.
#8
06-01-2016
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: fallbrook, ca
Posts: 14
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Received 0 Likes
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I sure was hoping that it was a PATS issue, but I get no rapid flashing at KOIO.
You mentioned the crankshaft position sensor, but I ruled that out because I get spark. This URL: Part 1 -How to Test the Crankshaft Position Sensor (Ford 4.6L, 5.4L)
says "TIP 4: When the crank sensor goes BAD, you'll get a No Spark- No Start Condition... so, if you're getting spark from the ignition coil pack or the Coil-on-Plug ignition coils.. the crank sensor is good and this test will not help you."
That document is for larger Ford engines. May I assume the same would be true for my 3 liter?
12V power direct to the load side of the inertia switch does not turn on the pump.
You mentioned the crankshaft position sensor, but I ruled that out because I get spark. This URL: Part 1 -How to Test the Crankshaft Position Sensor (Ford 4.6L, 5.4L)
says "TIP 4: When the crank sensor goes BAD, you'll get a No Spark- No Start Condition... so, if you're getting spark from the ignition coil pack or the Coil-on-Plug ignition coils.. the crank sensor is good and this test will not help you."
That document is for larger Ford engines. May I assume the same would be true for my 3 liter?
12V power direct to the load side of the inertia switch does not turn on the pump.
#9
06-01-2016
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