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  #76  
Old 10-09-2008
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Response from Chris Hoffman, Stant Inc.:

Not aware of anything like that. Current technology thermostats open and close in relation to the heat of the coolant passing over the heat motor.




Bob. Is this *NOT* exactly what I said? The stat opens and closes with heat from the engine. You seem to assume that the stat is open all the time. You ignorance and arrogance completely blind you to basic science of heat transfer.

It is truely amazing to me that you will argue and argue against something that is fundimental thermodynamics.

I'm not sure what your political leanings are. But good grief you sound EXACLTLY like a liberal democrat. Facts don't matter in your world! It's all about your egotistical perception.

Rich
  #77  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, Rich, I gave my reference to the thermostat operation, where is yours????
LOL. Bob your nuts. I was a bloody cooling and fead engineer for 6 years. I personally spent a week in Waltham Mass (sp?) at the stant factory learning when I first got into that position. I'm a genuine expert in the matter and you want me to post up some internet link?

Get real.
  #78  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
LOL. Bob your nuts. I was a bloody cooling and fead engineer for 6 years. I personally spent a week in Waltham Mass (sp?) at the stant factory learning when I first got into that position. I'm a genuine expert in the matter and you want me to post up some internet link?

Get real.

Come on Rich, I'm getting tired of hearing that same line, lets see something
stating that a thermostat has to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!

If what you are saying was true, a stuck open thermostat would cause overheating, let's see you find a case of
this happening!!!!

"I'm a genuine expert"

So, you are correct, and the rest of the world is WRONG????????

Let's see one other person that has the same theory you have!!


I've given a reference from a Stant engineer stating this doesn't happen!!

Again, how many more reference do you want me to give on thermostat operation???

Let see you get real!!!

Last edited by Takeda; 10-09-2008 at 09:14 AM.
  #79  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
I've given a reference from a Stant engineer stating this doesn't happen!!
This is a bold face lie!

I quote:

"Current technology thermostats open and close in relation to the heat of the coolant passing over the heat motor."
  #80  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
This is a bold face lie!

I quote:

"Current technology thermostats open and close in relation to the heat of the coolant passing over the heat motor."



Ok Rich, one more time:

My Question:

A technical question: Are you aware of any vehicle cooling system that requires the thermostat to close to allow heat transfer time in the radiator? Isn't the thermostat opening usually sufficient to control the flow rate through the radiator?


Answer:

Not aware of anything like that..........
  #81  
Old 10-09-2008
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Bob your assumption is that the stat is open all the time. Your assumption is also that it's an all or nothing situation.

Re-read the answer he gave you! The stat opens and closes based on the heat of the coolant. It's never an all or nothing situation. Never!

I don't get why you can't see this simple thing.

OK lets try this... using your line of thinking.. They would never overheat in your world, so why do cars/trucks even have stats?
  #82  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob your assumption is that the stat is open all the time. Your assumption is also that it's an all or nothing situation.

Re-read the answer he gave you! The stat opens and closes based on the heat of the coolant. It's never an all or nothing situation. Never!

I don't get why you can't see this simple thing.

OK lets try this... using your line of thinking.. They would never overheat in your world, so why do cars/trucks even have stats?
To keep the engine from running too cold Rich, to keep the engine from running too cold.......Now where is that example of an engine overheating
due to a thermostat stuck open???????? If we used your way of thinking, thermostats would be there to keep an engine from running too hot!!!!

And the answer he gave me, he has never heard of a thermostat having to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!!!!!

Last edited by Takeda; 10-09-2008 at 09:49 AM.
  #83  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
To keep the engine from running too cold Rich, to keep the engine from running too cold.......Now where is that example of an engine overheating
due to a thermostat stuck open???????? If we used your way of thinking, thermostats would be there to keep an engine from running too hot!!!!

And the answer he gave me, he has never heard of a thermostat having to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!!!!!
Whats the coolant in the engine doing while the coolant is in the radiator?

or vise versa its just how one is stating what is happening. lol
  #84  
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Originally Posted by zabeard View Post
Whats the coolant in the engine doing while the coolant is in the radiator?

or vise versa its just how one is stating what is happening. lol
When the thermostat is closed, the coolant is circulating through the coolant passages in the engine via the bypass circuit, the coolant in the radiator is stationary. When the thermostat opens, coolant flows from the engine into the radiator, and back to the engine.
  #85  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob your assumption is that the stat is open all the time. Your assumption is also that it's an all or nothing situation.

Re-read the answer he gave you! The stat opens and closes based on the heat of the coolant. It's never an all or nothing situation. Never!

I don't get why you can't see this simple thing.

OK lets try this... using your line of thinking.. They would never overheat in your world, so why do cars/trucks even have stats?

Rich, if your way of thinking was correct, the temp spec on a thermostat would be when they closed, NOT opened!!!!
  #86  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
To keep the engine from running too cold.....

....to keep an engine from running too hot...
Actually both is the goal.

Now whether or not you realized it.. you have admitted that controlling temperature is what the goal is.

As far as examples. Your wanting a web link or something. That rest upon you. I've personally ran cars w/o stats and have drilled differing sized holes in stats. I'm giving you a first hand account that a stat that doesn't close or stop fluid flow (or greatly reduce it) will in fact result in thermal runaway. It takes time.. but I've personally boiled a mustang and a chevelle before I ever got into engineering. Am I lieing? No. I have a fear of doing such and you know why.

At the time I didn't know why (just like you here and now) but I observed what happens. Later on when I became an engineer I figured out why.

I've posted the reasons above... mostly it has to do with the volume in the cooling system and the efficiency of the rad.

Here is a little clue for ya... have you ever noticed that when the OEMs started using aluminum rads.. that the number of cores and the size of the rad decreased? Gee.. I wonder why.
  #87  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
When the thermostat is closed, the coolant is circulating through the coolant passages in the engine via the bypass circuit, the coolant in the radiator is stationary. When the thermostat opens, coolant flows from the engine into the radiator, and back to the engine.
Finally some truth from Bob.

Now bob.. continue the line of thinking. Where does all that heat go?
  #88  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, if your way of thinking was correct, the temp spec on a thermostat would be when they closed, NOT opened!!!!
Bob you want simple all or nothing type of answers.
Listen to me...

The stat is set by submersing it in a bath of oil for about 3 minutes. During that time the wax expands. They then squeeze the brass cup on the engine side until the plate opens to a certian dimension. Go look at a stat and you'll see what I'm talking about. Put the stat in some water and bring it up to the spec'd temp and you'll see.

Between that dimension and a known spring rate the stat then is capable of operating in a controll temp range. It won't open too soon because the spring is keeping it closed. If temps go above it's spec.. the plate can't open much further because of a internal dead stop. Gee Bob. Wonder why?

It's because the coolant needs time in the rad to cool off!!!!!!!!!!!

Does it come to a dead stop. No usually not. But the fluid needs to stay in the rad for a certian length of time. It's called heat transfer Bob. If the hot coolant passes too quickly though the rad it doesn't cool enough.

This is simple.. put down the hammer and open your mind for once.

Rich
  #89  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Finally some truth from Bob.

Now bob.. continue the line of thinking. Where does all that heat go?
Rich, the heat is transferred from the engine to the radiator, and when the thermostat senses that the engine is TOO cool, it closes!!

If your thinking was correct, it would close when the radiator got TOO HOT, but the thermostat doesn't sense the coolant in the radiator, does it!!

Now I want you to to show references to the following:

1) A stuck open thermostat will cause an engine to overheat

2) A thermostat is in an engine to keep it from getting too hot

3) A temp spec on a thermostat is when it closes to keep an engine from overheating.

If your way of thinking was correct (against the thinking of the rest of the world) you should be able to find the references I'm asking for!!!
  #90  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
If your thinking was correct, it would close when the radiator got TOO HOT, but the thermostat doesn't sense the coolant in the radiator, does it!
Have you not read my posts?

This is like talking to a wall. pointless.
  #91  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob you want simple all or nothing type of answers.
Listen to me...

The stat is set by submersing it in a bath of oil for about 3 minutes. During that time the wax expands. They then squeeze the brass cup on the engine side until the plate opens to a certian dimension. Go look at a stat and you'll see what I'm talking about. Put the stat in some water and bring it up to the spec'd temp and you'll see.

Between that dimension and a known spring rate the stat then is capable of operating in a controll temp range. It won't open too soon because the spring is keeping it closed. If temps go above it's spec.. the plate can't open much further because of a internal dead stop. Gee Bob. Wonder why?

It's because the coolant needs time in the rad to cool off!!!!!!!!!!!

Does it come to a dead stop. No usually not. But the fluid needs to stay in the rad for a certian length of time. It's called heat transfer Bob. If the hot coolant passes too quickly though the rad it doesn't cool enough.

This is simple.. put down the hammer and open your mind for once.

Rich


Still nothing to back your claims up Rich..........I'm done!!!!!
  #92  
Old 10-09-2008
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..........I'm done!!!!!

Thank you
  #93  
Old 10-09-2008
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Thanks. good read. lol.
  #94  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Still nothing to back your claims up Rich
Still nothing to back up your claim about the need to bypass the rev limiter to cause water pump cavitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
I'm done!!!!!
You have been way past done for a very long time.
  #95  
Old 10-09-2008
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I'm done!!!!!
effin finally. i thought this thread was about open filters and the factory pcm, not a stinkin tstat thread.
  #96  
Old 10-09-2008
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effin finally. i thought this thread was about open filters and the factory pcm, not a stinkin tstat thread.
You can thank Mr. Ayers for that one.
  #97  
Old 10-09-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Have you not read my posts?

This is like talking to a wall. pointless.

i agree 100% rich. he must have blinders on and still he can not see anything, not even whats in front of his face.


bob, i have a task for you, if you seem to know so much please go take some ASE tests. i'll pay for you to take them.


go take the heating and cooling test, post your results.
  #98  
Old 10-11-2008
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Originally Posted by 04 EDGE View Post
i agree 100% rich. he must have blinders on and still he can not see anything, not even whats in front of his face.


bob, i have a task for you, if you seem to know so much please go take some ASE tests. i'll pay for you to take them.


go take the heating and cooling test, post your results.
Mark, I have some good news for you! You can save your money! It was extremely difficult, but I was able to find somebody with better ASE credentials than you have:

Peter F. Meier

http://autoservicetech.com/


I e-mailed Pete, and he has a very different opinion of thermostat operation than you (and Rich) have. So, how did you pass the ASE test section on
"heating and cooling"?


My e-mail to Pete:



"Hi Pete,

Have you ever heard of an automotive cooling system that requires the thermostat to close, to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator?

Thanks!

Bob Ayers"



Pete's reply:



"Hi Bob!

I can't say I am familiar with any automotive cooling system that requires the thermostat to close for cooling. Is there a specific vehicle you have in mind?

The thermostat regulates the engine operating temperature by opening/closing the passage from the engine to the radiator. Coolant in the radiator is cooled by the air passing over...either from normal airflow from vehicle speed, and/or by airflow induced by an electric or mechanical fan. Some hybrid systems store heated coolant, and use separate cooling system designs for cooling the HV control units. If there is a specific application you are wondering about, please let me know and I'll see what I can find out for you.

Thanks for taking the time to write, and I hope you enjoyed the site.

Pete"
  #99  
Old 10-11-2008
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i am really beginning to hate this thread....
  #100  
Old 10-11-2008
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I'm done!!!!!
Couldn't do it could you.

In the end I would trust Rich's word against yours any day. He actually tries mods.
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