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  #51  
Old 10-07-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
The Ford statement about UDPs was also based on the reduced speed of the water pump, which you don't address!!! Nothing to do with the 8hp increase, but it increases the temp of the engine!
Not true. The engine temp is controlled by the stat.

The stat is only open 50% of the time MAX. Take a look at the size of the internal by-pass passages and you'll see the real facts about how much flow needs to take place.

Rich
  #52  
Old 10-07-2008
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Rich, I would respect you a lot more, if you would just say you don't know what the units are, instead of trying the BS approach!!!!
I'm perplexed Bob? I have clearly said what the units are. What don't you understand?

Do you not understand what a scale is?

Do you not understand what a ferinheight is?

Do you not understand what a degree of timing is?


Bob... I truely give up on you. I think your just argueing for the sake of something to do.
I wish you well...

Rehards, Rich
  #53  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Not true. The engine temp is controlled by the stat.

The stat is only open 50% of the time MAX. Take a look at the size of the internal by-pass passages and you'll see the real facts about how much flow needs to take place.

Rich

Are you saying Ford doesn't know what they are talking about when it comes to over heating problems caused by UDPs?

I think you have previously stated that the thermostat has to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator, which is totally BS!!!
  #54  
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
I'm perplexed Bob? I have clearly said what the units are. What don't you understand?

Do you not understand what a scale is?

Do you not understand what a ferinheight is?

Do you not understand what a degree of timing is?


Bob... I truely give up on you. I think your just argueing for the sake of something to do.
I wish you well...

Rehards, Rich

Sorry Rich, you keep believing that the timing is changing more than 100 degrees!!!

I know what fahrenheit is, I can't say I have ever heard of ferinheight!!
  #55  
Old 10-07-2008
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Bob, sending you a PM
  #56  
Old 10-07-2008
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Another very informative thread gone south. I apologize for my part in it.
  #57  
Old 10-07-2008
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Alls I know is you guys make me laugh, its good entertainment, while at work.
  #58  
Old 10-07-2008
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I sit here at times waiting for 45 minutes for the computer to crunch. So.. yeah it's entertaining. Although for some reason I feel like I'm talking to a teenager / brick wall. Pert near pointless!
  #59  
Old 10-07-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
The Ford statement about UDPs was also based on the reduced speed of the water pump, which you don't address!!!!
At high RPM a water pump cavitates. An UP would prevent that.
  #60  
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Originally Posted by fddriver02 View Post
At high RPM a water pump cavitates. An UP would prevent that.
Simply brilliant!!!!!! Ask yourself how long you stay at MAX RPM, vs how long you stay at idle!!
  #61  
Old 10-07-2008
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Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Simply brilliant!!!!!! Ask yourself how long you stay at MAX RPM, vs how long you stay at idle!!
Don't care. The fact is that high RPM does cause cavitation.

Oh and how long do I stay at high RPM? Have you ever heard of 4wd low? It tends to cause high RPM for extended periods of time.
  #62  
Old 10-07-2008
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Don't care. The fact is that high RPM does cause cavitation.

Oh and how long do I stay at high RPM? Have you ever heard of 4wd low? It tends to cause high RPM for extended periods of time.
You would have to disable the RPM limiter in the PCM to reach a RPM high enough to cause cavitation with the OEM pulleys!!!
  #63  
Old 10-07-2008
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You would have to disable the RPM limiter in the PCM to reach a RPM high enough to cause cavitation with the OEM pulleys!!!
Where are your independent tests??????

Last edited by whippersnapper02; 10-07-2008 at 04:25 PM.
  #64  
Old 10-07-2008
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You would have to disable the RPM limiter in the PCM to reach a RPM high enough to cause cavitation with the OEM pulleys!!!

This is without question FALSE. Of all people on R-F I know.

It's true that there is a balance between cavitation and low rpm flow. But in every case low rpm flow is more important. What we do with high end cavitation is to study where the shock waves are occuring and see what detrimental effects they have. Generally we try to change the shape (edges) such that the water is collapsing together (cavitation) out in the main stream vs against a hard surface. That way there is very little if any wear when it occurs. If cavitation is occuring against a hard part it'll eat it up in as little as 10hrs. And usually the stiffer the part the quicker it'll go too. Aluminum supprisingly will stand up better than a stamped steel part.

I know this won't mean anything to Bob and he'll just call a "bs" on it. Doesn't change the facts of me testing water pumps and redesigning the impellers, housing tongue, and even the volutes on a OEM level.

Rich
  #65  
Old 10-07-2008
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Rich, your word is good enough for 99% of the people here.
  #66  
Old 10-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graniteguy View Post
Bob, you just increased my sales. My average ticket was $120.95 for a pulley and belt. We are now up to $315 with the addition of a scan gauge II and an alt pulley. Let me know where to send the check.

wayne send it to me, i will in return send it back to you for a set of pulleys lol

serious i will!
  #67  
Old 10-08-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
This is without question FALSE. Of all people on R-F I know.

It's true that there is a balance between cavitation and low rpm flow. But in every case low rpm flow is more important. What we do with high end cavitation is to study where the shock waves are occuring and see what detrimental effects they have. Generally we try to change the shape (edges) such that the water is collapsing together (cavitation) out in the main stream vs against a hard surface. That way there is very little if any wear when it occurs. If cavitation is occuring against a hard part it'll eat it up in as little as 10hrs. And usually the stiffer the part the quicker it'll go too. Aluminum supprisingly will stand up better than a stamped steel part.

I know this won't mean anything to Bob and he'll just call a "bs" on it. Doesn't change the facts of me testing water pumps and redesigning the impellers, housing tongue, and even the volutes on a OEM level.

Rich
Rich, this goes right along with your understanding of thermostat operation, where you think it has to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!
  #68  
Old 10-08-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Rich, this goes right along with your understanding of thermostat operation, where you think it has to close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!
I fully agree!
  #69  
Old 10-08-2008
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i agree also. this is one of the simplest questions on the ASE test. bob however would fail due to his lack of knowledge in this area.
  #70  
Old 10-09-2008
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Originally Posted by 04 EDGE View Post
i agree also. this is one of the simplest questions on the ASE test. bob however would fail due to his lack of knowledge in this area.

Mark, for your and Rich's benefit, a thermostat DOES NOT close to allow the coolant to cool in the radiator!! Basic principle: A thermostat OPENS when
it gets to a specified temp, and will close if it gets too cool!!!! A thermostat STUCK OPEN will cause the engine to run TOO COOL, it won't make the engine
run TOO HOT!!

Last edited by Takeda; 10-09-2008 at 06:29 AM.
  #71  
Old 10-09-2008
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Nevermind.. I've been dumbed down enough.

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 10-09-2008 at 08:02 AM.
  #72  
Old 10-09-2008
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
OK Bob. I'm taking you to task. Respectfully I'd like for you to explain why your right.
You made the claim... back it up *using science*!


When I get some dead time waiting on data transfers.. I'll do the same.

Rich
Here ya go Rich:

This is an e-mail I sent to Stant Inc. back in June -08, when you made your rediculous claim of a thermostat having to close, to cool the coolant in the
radiator:



SUBJECT: Stant Thermostat Operation

MESSAGE CONTENTS:
Hi,
A technical question: Are you aware of any vehicle cooling system that requires the thermostat to close to allow heat transfer time in the radiator? Isn't the thermostat opening usually sufficient to control the flow rate through the radiator?

Thanks!

Bob Ayers



Response from Chris Hoffman, Stant Inc.:

Not aware of anything like that. Current technology thermostats open and close in relation to the heat of the coolant passing over the heat motor.


Chris Hoffman
Stant Inc.
********@***



How many other links would you like in reference to how a thermostat works?
  #73  
Old 10-09-2008
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I see both points.

If the thermostat is closed the air flowing through the radiator is going to keep cooling that coolant in the radiator.

If the thermostat is open (stuck open) it can only cool the coolant for the amount of time it is in the radiator, if it is flowing constantly its not going to cool the coolant enough, causing the engine to overheat over time.

I think both of you guys are arguing over the same points and it not getting either of you anywhere.

Correct me if I am wrong...
  #74  
Old 10-09-2008
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Bob simply doesn't understand heat transfer. And.. IMO it's a waste of time to argue with him on it. He has it set in his mind and he's wrong.

Here are the facts:

Heat transfers from hot to cold. It's a scientific fact no matter what Bobs perception is.

The stat has a wax in it's brass cup (engine side). That wax expands and contracts against a tapered pin as it's heated / cooled. This pushes the plate open against a spring as it gets hot and the spring pushes the plate/pin closed as the pressure from the wax decreases. Again no matter what Bob thinks.. this is basic science and anyone can cut one open to see for themself.

The coolant system in an automotive engine has internal by-passes. Often times it's the heater core and/or just part of the heater circut. Again.. no matter what Bob thinks.. this is fact.

As the heat in the engine & by-pass circut gets to much, the stat opens. Then and only then does the coolant start to flow **in part** to the rad. The by-pass circut is still flowing. Yet again... no matter what Bob thinks. This is fact.

The coolant in the rad cools off very quickly because the rad and air flowing through it have been designed, engineered using math, and validated to function as was designed / engineered. I'm sure that one is 1000ft over Bobs head!

The percentage of heat being transfered into the cooling system is approx 40%. 40% goes out the exhaust, and 20% goes elsewhere through the by-pass and air surrounding the engine. surely.. even Bob will admit there is heat in the exhaust and engine room? Who know though, He'll probably try to say that the heat comes from space aliens.

The heat being transfered in the the air stream, passing through the rad cools the coolant.

***when and only when*** the stat opens does this cooled fluid flows back to the motor. On nearly all engines it flows through the pump, through the block, and then up to the heads. It then goes though the by-pass circut and to the rad *when* the stat opens.

Anyone who has ever drilled a hole in thier stat (hot rodders) or has ever run a motor in the south w/o a stat can tell you that the motor will run cooler longer... U-N-T-I-L the heat builds up and the rad can't keep up.
The reason is because the fluid is flowing too quickly in the system. Coolant system heat simply doesn't transfer that quickly in the rad. The rads volume and surface area, as well as the air flowing though, determine how long this would take.

Bob no matter what your perception is. These are facts. If you don't believe it I suggest you cut open a stat and see for yourself. I suggest you then take the rad out of your ranger and let it idle in the drive for an hour. Or go drive around town for a while. Who knows... maybe you'll just learn how eating crow tastes.

I doubt you'll do it though. Your a very stubborn man.

Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 10-09-2008 at 08:49 AM.
  #75  
Old 10-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
Bob simply doesn't understand heat transfer. And.. IMO it's a waste of time to argue with him on it. He has it set in his mind and he's wrong.

Here are the facts:

Heat transfers from hot to cold. It's a scientific fact no matter what Bobs perception is.

The stat has a wax in it's brass cup (engine side). That wax expands and contracts against a tapered pin as it's heated / cooled. This pushes the plate open against a spring as it gets hot and the spring pushes the plate/pin closed as the pressure from the wax decreases. Again no matter what Bob thinks.. this is basic science and anyone can cut one open to see for themself.

The coolant system in an automotive engine has internal by-passes. Often times it's the heater core and/or just part of the heater circut. Again.. no matter what Bob thinks.. this is fact.

As the heat in the engine & by-pass circut gets to much, the stat opens. Then and only then does the coolant start to flow **in part** to the rad. The by-pass circut is still flowing. Yet again... no matter what Bob thinks. This is fact.

The coolant in the rad cools off very quickly because the rad and air flowing through it have been designed, engineered using math, and validated to function as was designed / engineered. I'm sure that one is 1000ft over Bobs head!

The percentage of heat being transfered into the cooling system is approx 40%. 40% goes out the exhaust, and 20% goes elsewhere through the by-pass and air surrounding the engine. surely.. even Bob will admit there is heat in the exhaust and engine room? Who know though, He'll probably try to say that the heat comes from space aliens.

The heat being transfered in the the air stream, passing through the rad cools the coolant.

***when and only when*** the stat opens does this cooled fluid flows back to the motor. On nearly all engines it flows through the pump, through the block, and then up to the heads. It then goes though the by-pass circut and to the rad *when* the stat opens.

Anyone who has ever drilled a hole in thier stat (hot rodders) or has ever run a motor in the south w/o a stat can tell you that the motor will run cooler longer... U-N-T-I-L the heat builds up and the rad can't keep up.
The reason is because the fluid is flowing too quickly in the system. Coolant system heat simply doesn't transfer that quickly in the rad. The rads volume and surface area, as well as the air flowing though, determine how long this would take.

Bob no matter what your perception is. These are facts. If you don't believe it I suggest you cut open a stat and see for yourself. I suggest you then take the rad out of your ranger and let it idle in the drive for an hour. Or go drive around town for a while. Who knows... maybe you'll just learn how eating crow tastes.

I doubt you'll do it though. Your a very stubborn man.

Rich


Rich, Rich, I gave my reference to the thermostat operation, where is yours???? SHow me where a thermostat stuck open causes an engine to overheat! If your theory on the thermostat having to close was correct, there will be cars overheating with a "stuck open" thermostat!!!
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