Hard Start when cold 2.5L
Hard Start when cold 2.5L
After lots of searching here I ended up replacing the injectors (all 4) It looks like #1 was leaking due to a slightly wet plug. It starts better but still has trouble. It acts likes its flooded. I do the "Clear Flooded Engine" and sometimes it starts. But this is always after trying to start it normally. Once I get it to finally start up it runs great and smooth. It has the higher idle which slowly drops as it warms up. Could the coolant temp sensor be bad?
Also before I did the injectors I noticed the fuel pressure would drop fairly fast with key on engine off. It would drop below 20 within a few seconds. After injector replacement it slowly drops to about 30 and then drops even slower below 30. With engine running it holds a very steady 65psi with no drops. Could the fuel pump check valve cause a hard start for some reason? If it sits for about 30 mins or more it gets hard to start. The longer it sits the harder it is to start.
What else could cause it to flood?
IAC is new and functioning
MAF is clean and tested electrically to be good
TPS tested good
Also before I did the injectors I noticed the fuel pressure would drop fairly fast with key on engine off. It would drop below 20 within a few seconds. After injector replacement it slowly drops to about 30 and then drops even slower below 30. With engine running it holds a very steady 65psi with no drops. Could the fuel pump check valve cause a hard start for some reason? If it sits for about 30 mins or more it gets hard to start. The longer it sits the harder it is to start.
What else could cause it to flood?
IAC is new and functioning
MAF is clean and tested electrically to be good
TPS tested good
ECT sensor is not expensive to replace but high cold idle and slow drop during warm up would indicate to me that its working OK, when that happens, but could be intermittent at some temps
Unplug one coil pack and start WARM engine, make sure there are no misfires
Then plug that coil pack back in and unplug the other one
This will tell you if one or more spark plugs are not working, a misfire
Both spark plugs fire at the same time so 1995 and up 2.3l/2.5l Lima engines should start and run OK with one coil pack and 4 spark plugs, but better performance with dual plugs working
(1989-1994 only use 1 coil pack for startup, exhaust side)
Wider spark plug gap is better for startup, when was last time spark plugs were changed and what gap was used?
So when you do the Clear Flooded Engine test when engine is warmed up it won't fire or start up?
As for fuel pressure, you can try cycling key on and off 3 times before trying to start engine, that should add 15-30psi to the pressure at startup, just to see if it helps
But 20-30psi should be OK for startup
You should have a 3 port fuel filter
In the tank is the fuel pump with check valve AND a fuel pressure regulator(FPR) hooked to the return line from the fuel filter
Check valve or FPR can cause loss of pressure with key off, but I would expect a drop to 0psi
Unplug one coil pack and start WARM engine, make sure there are no misfires
Then plug that coil pack back in and unplug the other one
This will tell you if one or more spark plugs are not working, a misfire
Both spark plugs fire at the same time so 1995 and up 2.3l/2.5l Lima engines should start and run OK with one coil pack and 4 spark plugs, but better performance with dual plugs working
(1989-1994 only use 1 coil pack for startup, exhaust side)
Wider spark plug gap is better for startup, when was last time spark plugs were changed and what gap was used?
So when you do the Clear Flooded Engine test when engine is warmed up it won't fire or start up?
As for fuel pressure, you can try cycling key on and off 3 times before trying to start engine, that should add 15-30psi to the pressure at startup, just to see if it helps
But 20-30psi should be OK for startup
You should have a 3 port fuel filter
In the tank is the fuel pump with check valve AND a fuel pressure regulator(FPR) hooked to the return line from the fuel filter
Check valve or FPR can cause loss of pressure with key off, but I would expect a drop to 0psi
Last edited by RonD; Dec 18, 2019 at 01:29 PM.
ECT sensor is not expensive to replace but high cold idle and slow drop during warm up would indicate to me that its working OK, when that happens, but could be intermittent at some temps
Unplug one coil pack and start WARM engine, make sure there are no misfires
Then plug that coil pack back in and unplug the other one
This will tell you if one or more spark plugs are not working, a misfire
Both spark plugs fire at the same time so 1995 and up 2.3l/2.5l Lima engines should start and run OK with one coil pack and 4 spark plugs, but better performance with dual plugs working
(1989-1994 only use 1 coil pack for startup, exhaust side)
Wider spark plug gap is better for startup, when was last time spark plugs were changed and what gap was used?
So when you do the Clear Flooded Engine test when engine is warmed up it won't fire or start up?
As for fuel pressure, you can try cycling key on and off 3 times before trying to start engine, that should add 15-30psi to the pressure at startup, just to see if it helps
But 20-30psi should be OK for startup
You should have a 3 port fuel filter
In the tank is the fuel pump with check valve AND a fuel pressure regulator(FPR) hooked to the return line from the fuel filter
Check valve or FPR can cause loss of pressure with key off, but I would expect a drop to 0psi
Unplug one coil pack and start WARM engine, make sure there are no misfires
Then plug that coil pack back in and unplug the other one
This will tell you if one or more spark plugs are not working, a misfire
Both spark plugs fire at the same time so 1995 and up 2.3l/2.5l Lima engines should start and run OK with one coil pack and 4 spark plugs, but better performance with dual plugs working
(1989-1994 only use 1 coil pack for startup, exhaust side)
Wider spark plug gap is better for startup, when was last time spark plugs were changed and what gap was used?
So when you do the Clear Flooded Engine test when engine is warmed up it won't fire or start up?
As for fuel pressure, you can try cycling key on and off 3 times before trying to start engine, that should add 15-30psi to the pressure at startup, just to see if it helps
But 20-30psi should be OK for startup
You should have a 3 port fuel filter
In the tank is the fuel pump with check valve AND a fuel pressure regulator(FPR) hooked to the return line from the fuel filter
Check valve or FPR can cause loss of pressure with key off, but I would expect a drop to 0psi
The plugs were changed before I bought it. They are Bosch platinum and I checked the gap at .050 on all 8 plugs. Some were more some were less but all are .050 now.
I'm at work but I'll go do the clear flooded engine test now with it warm. I haven't tried that.
I have cycled the key. I tried one time, then 2 times, then 3 times and nothing changes it.
IIRC I have a 2 port fuel filter. I did replace that about 3 months ago. The old one was actually good but now I know it's new!
Key on engine off the fuel psi will go to zero. It just takes about 5 min or so to get there. Just wasn't sure if that would cause my issue or not.
The 0 psi can cause the no start, and if it drops fast enough then cycling the key may not help, you get 10psi each time fuel pump runs for 2 seconds, key on, but if is dropping back to 0psi each time then cycling doesn't help
You could try 50/50 test
Spray fuel, gasoline or Ether(quick start) into the intake on cold engine
Then try to start it
If it fires up quickly then lack of fuel at startup is the issue
So fuel pump would be next stop
If it doesn't fire then lack of spark is the issue, long shot would be Crank Sensor, its the only sensor that can cause a no start
The computer has no connection to starting circuit
It only knows you want to start the engine when crank sensor starts to send a pulse as the crank spins, it then uses that pulse to time spark and injectors for startup
Crank sensors can fail, its rare, but usually it just quits working altogether
A long shot but not a no shot, lol.
And the computer also gets a pulse from Cam Sensor, so it would usually set a code and turn on the CEL if crank sensor pulse was missing while cam sensor pulse was there on startup
You could try 50/50 test
Spray fuel, gasoline or Ether(quick start) into the intake on cold engine
Then try to start it
If it fires up quickly then lack of fuel at startup is the issue
So fuel pump would be next stop
If it doesn't fire then lack of spark is the issue, long shot would be Crank Sensor, its the only sensor that can cause a no start
The computer has no connection to starting circuit
It only knows you want to start the engine when crank sensor starts to send a pulse as the crank spins, it then uses that pulse to time spark and injectors for startup
Crank sensors can fail, its rare, but usually it just quits working altogether
A long shot but not a no shot, lol.
And the computer also gets a pulse from Cam Sensor, so it would usually set a code and turn on the CEL if crank sensor pulse was missing while cam sensor pulse was there on startup
When I cycle the key it goes up to 60psi and slowly drops. It takes at least 5 min to get to zero. So I do know the cycling keeps the psi at or above 40psi just before starting. (Or trying to start)
Could it not have spark for a few seconds and then flood the engine before starting? If so would this issue be the crank sensor like you describe? And only when cold or at least after sitting for a while.
Before changing the injectors it had a CEL but I never got to take it to see what it was. After the injector replacement the light went off. I never disconnected the battery because I wanted to have it checked after the injector replacement but I didn't get that chance.
Could it not have spark for a few seconds and then flood the engine before starting? If so would this issue be the crank sensor like you describe? And only when cold or at least after sitting for a while.
Before changing the injectors it had a CEL but I never got to take it to see what it was. After the injector replacement the light went off. I never disconnected the battery because I wanted to have it checked after the injector replacement but I didn't get that chance.
Well the computer starts spark first, then it will open injectors, both are based on Crank Sensor pulse
You can pull fuel pump relay or fuel pump fuse, assuming 0psi pressure at that time
Then spray Ether into the intake and try to start, that will tell you if you have spark first, should fire instantly with Ether, won't stay running of course
Code will still be in memory, takes awhile for them to Clear unless you clear them with a reader
You can pull fuel pump relay or fuel pump fuse, assuming 0psi pressure at that time
Then spray Ether into the intake and try to start, that will tell you if you have spark first, should fire instantly with Ether, won't stay running of course
Code will still be in memory, takes awhile for them to Clear unless you clear them with a reader
Well the computer starts spark first, then it will open injectors, both are based on Crank Sensor pulse
You can pull fuel pump relay or fuel pump fuse, assuming 0psi pressure at that time
Then spray Ether into the intake and try to start, that will tell you if you have spark first, should fire instantly with Ether, won't stay running of course
Code will still be in memory, takes awhile for them to Clear unless you clear them with a reader
You can pull fuel pump relay or fuel pump fuse, assuming 0psi pressure at that time
Then spray Ether into the intake and try to start, that will tell you if you have spark first, should fire instantly with Ether, won't stay running of course
Code will still be in memory, takes awhile for them to Clear unless you clear them with a reader
I'll try the Ether and fuse tomorrow morning when cold and see what happens.
I pulled the fuel pump relay and sprayed Ether and it did NOT start. I checked for spark and it had spark from both coils. I tried the Ether again and it started up then died like I was expecting. I put the relay back in and it started up. Although now I have noticed that when it starts it does not give the high idle and slowly drop as it warms up like it did before. I'm guessing the coolant temp sensor is not working correctly. It's only a few months old so I will warranty it out and see what happens
UPDATE and more questions! I tested the ECT sensor and it is functioning properly. When cold it shoes an Ohms resistance of 55. This resistance slowly drops to about 1 Ohm as it warms up. I tested the wiring from the computer to the sensor. With Key ON engine OFF sensor unplugged I have 4.8 volts going to the sensor. Plugged in and cold I show 3.8 volts. As it warms up the volts drop to less than 1 volt when fully warmed up. This reading is taken by probing the wires as the sensor is plugged in.
My question is.... Shouldn't the volts going through the sensor start low (Less than 1 volt) due to a high resistance and slowly go UPto 4 volts as the resistance goes down? Because mine is doing the opposite.
My question is.... Shouldn't the volts going through the sensor start low (Less than 1 volt) due to a high resistance and slowly go UPto 4 volts as the resistance goes down? Because mine is doing the opposite.
Last edited by Rock304; Jan 2, 2020 at 06:13 AM.
Damn. OK. Well I still have a very hard time starting it when the temps drop into the low 30's high 20's here. And I don't get the raised idle when it does start. I also get the transmission to go into what feels like neutral after about 100 feet of driving! This has happened 3 times now. It doesn't matter what gear you try (Automatic) you need to shut it off and then restart it. I've heard the ECT sensor can cause this but mine tests good. If the temps are in the mid to upper 40's or more it starts great. I'm stumped!!
You may want to buy a Bluetooth OBD2 reader, under $40, they work on ANY vehicle from 1996 and up, its the LAW, so not a Ford thing
They use your smartphone, or tablet, as the display, APPs are free or $5
Get an extension cable with it, usually $4 or $5, on some vehicles the OBD port is off center, or recessed too far, so the Bluetooth connector doesn't reach it so you would have to remove a panel, with the cable you won't need to
With the OBD2 reader you can view LIVE DATA while engine is running, so can see what temperature the computer "thinks" the engine is at, since its not idling high cold it could be wiring issue not sensor issue
And no I can't recommend a brand of Bluetooth reader, just look at some of the reviews
They use your smartphone, or tablet, as the display, APPs are free or $5
Get an extension cable with it, usually $4 or $5, on some vehicles the OBD port is off center, or recessed too far, so the Bluetooth connector doesn't reach it so you would have to remove a panel, with the cable you won't need to
With the OBD2 reader you can view LIVE DATA while engine is running, so can see what temperature the computer "thinks" the engine is at, since its not idling high cold it could be wiring issue not sensor issue
And no I can't recommend a brand of Bluetooth reader, just look at some of the reviews
You may want to buy a Bluetooth OBD2 reader, under $40, they work on ANY vehicle from 1996 and up, its the LAW, so not a Ford thing
They use your smartphone, or tablet, as the display, APPs are free or $5
Get an extension cable with it, usually $4 or $5, on some vehicles the OBD port is off center, or recessed too far, so the Bluetooth connector doesn't reach it so you would have to remove a panel, with the cable you won't need to
With the OBD2 reader you can view LIVE DATA while engine is running, so can see what temperature the computer "thinks" the engine is at, since its not idling high cold it could be wiring issue not sensor issue
And no I can't recommend a brand of Bluetooth reader, just look at some of the reviews
They use your smartphone, or tablet, as the display, APPs are free or $5
Get an extension cable with it, usually $4 or $5, on some vehicles the OBD port is off center, or recessed too far, so the Bluetooth connector doesn't reach it so you would have to remove a panel, with the cable you won't need to
With the OBD2 reader you can view LIVE DATA while engine is running, so can see what temperature the computer "thinks" the engine is at, since its not idling high cold it could be wiring issue not sensor issue
And no I can't recommend a brand of Bluetooth reader, just look at some of the reviews
OK I bought an OBDII reader. The computer is seeing the correct temps. The only issue I can see is the TPS shows (showed 16%) at idle. I checked my other vehicles and they show 0% at idle. Thought I might have a bad TPS so I replaced it. It was the original from 1998. Now the TPS shows 13% at idle. The adjustment screw has been backed off so it's not even touching. I even removed the throttle body to make sure the butterfly plate is closing fully and it is. Fully warmed up idle RPM is 750 to 800 and it runs great.
Key on engine off I can move the throttle and it goes from 13% up to 89% at wide open position.
So in my thinking it looks like when it's cold it's trying to start in Open Loop (Rich fuel mix) and the computer also thinks the throttle is being slightly applied so it's dumping too much fuel and causing the hard start. If this is true what is my next move? If this is not the case what else can I look at?
Or do I just say screw it and deal with it until the weather warms up and the problem goes away?? LOL
Key on engine off I can move the throttle and it goes from 13% up to 89% at wide open position.
So in my thinking it looks like when it's cold it's trying to start in Open Loop (Rich fuel mix) and the computer also thinks the throttle is being slightly applied so it's dumping too much fuel and causing the hard start. If this is true what is my next move? If this is not the case what else can I look at?
Or do I just say screw it and deal with it until the weather warms up and the problem goes away?? LOL
Its normal for Ranger TPS voltage to be 10-20% with throttle closed and 85-95% at WOT
Its a learned range, so the 16% TPS would be OK, as far as that reading with throttle closed
Some vehicles use 0%-100%
This is a software/hardware choice by vehicle maker
If you think cold start is flooding out the engine then press gas pedal down all the way and hold it down, then crank the engine
Gas pedal to the floor(WOT) and 0 RPMs, tells computer to turn off fuel injectors, so no fuel would be added to engine and it will warm up by cranking and dry out from air flow
Then try to start normally
Its a learned range, so the 16% TPS would be OK, as far as that reading with throttle closed
Some vehicles use 0%-100%
This is a software/hardware choice by vehicle maker
If you think cold start is flooding out the engine then press gas pedal down all the way and hold it down, then crank the engine
Gas pedal to the floor(WOT) and 0 RPMs, tells computer to turn off fuel injectors, so no fuel would be added to engine and it will warm up by cranking and dry out from air flow
Then try to start normally
Last edited by RonD; Jan 10, 2020 at 08:37 AM.
Its normal for Ranger TPS voltage to be 10-20% with throttle closed and 85-95% at WOT
Its a learned range, so the 16% TPS would be OK, as far as that reading with throttle closed
Some vehicles use 0%-100%
This is a software/hardware choice by vehicle maker
If you think cold start is flooding out the engine then press gas pedal down all the way and hold it down, then crank the engine
Gas pedal to the floor(WOT) and 0 RPMs, tells computer to turn off fuel injectors, so no fuel would be added to engine and it will warm up by cranking and dry out from air flow
Then try to start normally
Its a learned range, so the 16% TPS would be OK, as far as that reading with throttle closed
Some vehicles use 0%-100%
This is a software/hardware choice by vehicle maker
If you think cold start is flooding out the engine then press gas pedal down all the way and hold it down, then crank the engine
Gas pedal to the floor(WOT) and 0 RPMs, tells computer to turn off fuel injectors, so no fuel would be added to engine and it will warm up by cranking and dry out from air flow
Then try to start normally
Sometimes it starts and sometimes it just cranks doing the clear flooded engine test. Other times it starts great as normal. It is so all over the place as to when it will be hard to start and not that I feel like I'm just going in circles! LOL Our winter is almost over here so I will probably wait and stop messing with it as much now.
That's what I'm trying to do but so far every time it's been showing the correct temp from ECT. I'll keep checking that for now and see if I can catch it.
So I replaced the ECT Sensor. Two days in a row now it started fine. Crossing my fingers that even though the old one looked ok with the scanner, it wasn't giving good enough reading to the computer.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Vino634
DOHC - 2.3L Duratec / Mazda L Engines
18
May 10, 2022 12:00 PM



