Im Back! Water As Fuel... - Ranger-Forums - The Ultimate Ford Ranger Resource


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Old 12-13-2007
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Im Back! Water As Fuel...

ok i first gotta say i was wrong about a few things but for the most part i was right.. haha yea i was right.. you were wrong... lol ok let me explain
almost all automobile manufacturers are currently developing a new generation of vehicles that run on Hydrogen as opposed to Gasoline. This new generation of vehicles are essentially electric cars that use a Fuel Cell instead of a battery to run the electric motor. Using a chemical process, Fuel Cells in these new vehicles convert the stored Hydrogen on board, and the Oxygen in the air, directly into electricity to power their electric motors. These new Hydrogen powered electric vehicles are very efficient, and in fact are more efficient than any internal combustion engine. The problem is that these new vehicles are years away from production, are very expensive, and converting to using Hydrogen fuel in this manner requires you to buy a new ( and expensive ) vehicle. All Hydrogen/Fuel Cell systems currently under development by large manufacturers have you purchase Hydrogen as you would Gasoline.
A hydrogen Fuel System simply converts your existing vehicle to burn Hydrogen or Gasoline. The stock Gasoline fuel injection system remains intact and is not modified in any way. It is shut down while the Hydrogen fuel system is activated.
The Hydrogen gas is precisely metered into the air intake of the engine while the exhaust gasses are continuously analyzed for correct burn ratio.
This allows you to switch between running on Gasoline or Hydrogen at any time. The engine itself is only slightly modified, the conversion makes substantial changes to the computer & electrical system, ignition and cooling systems. Since they never have to be removed, Hydrogen fuel storage can be installed in virtually any available space within the vehicle.

Compatibility

Due to the fact that Hydrogen gas burns so much faster than Gasoline, engines with compression ratios greater than 9.5 to 1 are very susceptible to damaging predetonation (engine knock).
For this reason, Hydrogen conversions are not recommended for vehicles with turbochargers, superchargers, or compression ratios greater than 9.5 to 1.
Also, because of the higher compression, different ignition system, and host of other factors,
the Hydrogen Fuel System will not work on diesel engines.
A basic system consists of two parts, the Hydrogen fuel system in your vehicle, and a Hydrogen generating system that remains in your garage. The Hydrogen generator is either powered by Solar electric panels or a wind turbine set-up, either of which makes Hydrogen fuel at virtually no cost.

What's Real?

A lot has been written about converting vehicles to run hydrogen. Unfortunately, a lot of what you'll find on the internet is simply untrue.
Unfortunately, because Hydrogen fuel has been in the new a lot these days, many fly-by-night "investment firms" and "Hydrogen Research" companies have popped up asking for money from investor..., then disappearing into the night.
ANY claim of fueling a car with water, and having the water converted to Hydrogen quickly enough to power a passenger vehicle is pure B.S. (Sorry that's where i was wrong.) The bottom line is simple physics. It takes electrical energy to break the Hydrogen-Oxygen bond in water and release the free gases... and that takes time. The more energy applied to the water, the faster the gasses will evolve... up to a point.
It is not possible to create sufficient amounts Hydrogen gas from water (on board the vehicle) fast enough to idle the smallest passenger vehicle. If you're towing a nuclear reactor behind the car, along with a motor home-sized Hydrogen generator, you might have sufficient power and volume to accomplish the task, but that kind of defeats the purpose behind the conversion.
You can produce your own Hydrogen from electricity using either common "household current" or directly from solar cells so your energy cost is zero. It does however take a substantial amount of time to produce sufficient Hydrogen to fill even a small tank.
As an example, it takes over 2 days of our generator running at full power, 24 hours a day, to fill a small "short range" tank.

Storage

Since you can't make Hydrogen quickly enough to power a car in real time, you must produce it separately, and store it as you store your Gasoline fuel supply in your vehicle now.
There are but 3 ways to do this:

1. Store the Hydrogen as a compressed gas.
2. Store the Hydrogen as a liquid.
3. Store the Hydrogen chemically bonded to a chemical.

We'll cover each option in order.

1. If you choose to store the Hydrogen as a compressed gas, you'll need HUGE tanks, and many of them, since Hydrogen isn't very dense, so a tank really can't hold all that much. In addition, you'll be driving a giant bomb. In a collision, expect to die in a huge fireball/explosion.

2. Choosing liquid does solve the density problem since liquids are far more dense than gasses, so you can reduce the amount of tanks and their sizes required to power the car. The new problem that pops up is the fact the liquid Hydrogen in cryogenic... in short REALLY cold. It requires vacuum-thermos ( dewar ) tanks and vents to exhaust the boiling Hydrogen gas. You'll also have to find a source for liquid Hydrogen which is far more expensive than Gasoline. You've also now increased you danger factor when it comes to a collision. Not only will you have more Hydrogen gas spewing around that's going to explode and burn, but you'll also have a liquid spraying about that's over 400 degrees below zero. Once you add in the added complexity of the system due to the cryogenic liquid, your vehicle will wind up being a giant, low efficiency, rolling bomb that costs more than your house, and costs far more to run than it did on Gasoline.

3. The 3rd option is simply the only way to go. There are materials call Hydrides that absorb Hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water. Typically, the tanks are filled with granulated Hydrides, and Hydrogen is pressurized into the material. Hydrides have many advantages over liquid & gas. One is that the density of the Hydrogen stored in the Hydride can be GREATER than that of liquid Hydrogen. This translates directly into smaller and fewer storage tanks.
Once the Hydride is "charged" with Hydrogen, the Hydrogen becomes chemically bonded to the chemical. Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is.
Then how do you get the Hydrogen back out? To release the Hydrogen gas from the Hydride, it simply needs to be heated. This is either done electrically, using the waste exhaust heat, or using the waste radiator coolant heat. As soon at the Hydride is sufficiently warm, Hydrogen is released from the tanks and a on-board computer detects the presence of Hydrogen pressure. The fuel system remains in "Hydrogen" mode until the tank pressure begins to drop. If the tanks run out of Hydrogen, the engine will seamlessly switch over to Gasoline, which enables the car to run conventionally until the Hydrogen tanks are refilled.
With 4 hydride tanks you could travel over 400 miles without refueling..

Using Hydrogen, the only exhaust products produced are water vapor and a tiny amount of Nitrogen Oxides. It's about as clean burning as you can get.



Heres a list of what you need to convert your vehicle to run off hydrogen..

(Hydrogen Generator - 48 volt DC input.)

(Solar Panels - 80 Watts - 21.3 volts (open circuit). Approximate panel size: 2' x 4'.
5 solar panels (400 watts total) is the minimum amount of power required to operate the hydrogen generator.)

(Standard Tank - filled with Metal Hydride
Filled with Argon Gas to protect Hydride. (depending on vehicle, approx. 100 miles per fill). 4 tanks are required to power most vehicles.)

(Small Engine Controller - Complete computer & fuel metering system for smaller gasoline engines up to 20 horsepower.)

(Hydroflex Fuel Line - Light weight, flexible Stainless Steel fuel line.)

(Large Engine Controller - Mass Airflow Sensor, H2 Metering Computer, Exhaust sensors & solenoid valves.)

(Datalink Interface - (existing vehicle computer interface)


Unfortunatly only about half of whats on the list is currently unavailable.

But now you tell me im full of B.S...
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2007
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But now you tell me im full of B.S...
Nope. In fact, The Jew is going to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas!

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  #3  
Old 12-14-2007
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I don't think anybody said that you couldn't run a specifically modified engine on hydrogen, just that you were expecting something that would require rewriting the laws of physics...which you now admit. Thank you.

For the record...I'll have both a B.S. in electrical engineering and a B.S. in physics next year...electricity and energy are things I know
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Old 12-14-2007
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ok... how did i say i was gunna rewrite the laws of physics with the hydrogen generator idea? i talked about perpetual motion at one point in time but that has nothing to do with the hydrogen idea...
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Old 12-14-2007
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Originally Posted by KoDaK
ANY claim of fueling a car with water, and having the water converted to Hydrogen quickly enough to power a passenger vehicle is pure B.S. (Sorry that's where i was wrong.) The bottom line is simple physics. It takes electrical energy to break the Hydrogen-Oxygen bond in water and release the free gases... and that takes time. The more energy applied to the water, the faster the gasses will evolve... up to a point.
It is not possible to create sufficient amounts Hydrogen gas from water (on board the vehicle) fast enough to idle the smallest passenger vehicle. If you're towing a nuclear reactor behind the car, along with a motor home-sized Hydrogen generator, you might have sufficient power and volume to accomplish the task, but that kind of defeats the purpose behind the conversion.
The way you seemed to explain how you were going to run the electrolysis process and the use of the resulting hydrogen and oxygen would rely on some impossible efficiency. Its simply not a practical way to do it...as you seem to understand now from the above quote...so no problem.

The worst was the perpetual motion thing, whether it was a separate matter or not. It would rewrite physics if it were possible.
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Old 12-14-2007
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Now it looks like there is some research behind it, last time it was " Guess what me and my brother are gonna do..."
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2007
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i still believe perpetual motion is possible, the idea i came up with will cost a lot of money though so ill prolly never pay a lot just to see if it might work..
but the hydrogen generator prototype we made worked very well, we hooked it up to a welder to begin with at 50 amps and it worked great. we lit it off many times and it made an explosion with a very loud pop.. we lit it off many time within a few seconds and it still made good size explosions.. but when we put it in a car it didnt work very well because we simply didnt have enough power, so we need to do some major electrical configuration before it will work right.... the only problem we had with the prototype was it boiled the water within a few seconds... if we had a big tank and circulated the water it wouldnt boil but it still might get hot.. we havnt figured out a way around that problem yet but we dont really see what it will hurt or damage at high temperatures.. further testing will determine that.
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Old 12-14-2007
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Please believe me when I tell you perpetual motion is not possible. Your time will be better spent figuring out something like cold fusion.
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Old 12-14-2007
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believe what you want, ill make a prototype sometime n test my idea.. it prolly wont be for awhile though unfortunatly..
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Old 12-14-2007
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Your first post showed that you have some sense and quoted what is good existing technology (nothing new). Then you started spouting perpetual motion. Your credibility just went down the drain. Researching one thing and quoting it right does not make you able to do something that is impossible.
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Old 12-14-2007
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lol whatever, i think up s*** everyday so perpetual motion is nothing but an idea like most of everything else i think of.. well except the hydrogen generator. and i dont expect you to believe that perpetual motion is possible, but i proved you wrong with the hydrogen. you all thought i was crazy and was gunna kill myself, now i back showing you i know what i was talking about, not saying i know perpetual motion will work though, i just have a good idea that might work, if not it will rip itself apart...
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Old 12-14-2007
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Actually, you still haven't proved you did anything with hydrogen, but that's beside the point.

If you can make perpetual motion work you don't even have to build it to prove it, just show us the math.
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Old 12-14-2007
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im not trying to prove perpetual motion to anyone, after i make it then ill prove it but for now its an idea and i have no math for it.. and for the hydrogen generator i guess you woulda had to been there for me to proven it to you.. but we made it work great, its kinda hard not to make it work... but the perpetual motion idea involves a lot of figuring and a full scale model will cost a lot more than i want to spend, so i might make a small scale model just to see if it will work... it will do something, just not sure to what extent yet until i build a prototype, and ive done research on perpetual motion machines and have found no known device that is designed like mine will be
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Old 12-15-2007
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Old 12-15-2007
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i foresee this thread being locked within a few days.
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2007
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You're not really adding anything new. As stated in your first thread, I was splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen in my room when I was in Middle School. Did I mention I was 40 years old? lol. The technology wasn't new back then.

You have a lot of conversions to do: sun to electricity- electicity to hydrogen- store the hydrogen- release the hydrogen from the stored state- burn the hydrogen.

Then you have the initial energy to warm it before it can drive. A cold motor is not gonna have warm water or exhaust.

I guess my question is why? Is it for the sake of proving a point? If it's gonna be based on electricity why not skip a couple of steps and just put an electric motor in it. sun to electricity, store it in battery, release it to electric motor. I would think the range (battery storage vs hydrogen storage in the form you are describing) would be similar in either scenario.

Not to mention electrical recharges can be done anywhere. Home produced hydrogen has to be done at home.

I'm not knocking the idea, I just question why hydrogen? Is the goal an emmissions free vehicle or a hydrogen vehicle? WHat is your thought for pursuing this? What goal are you trying to serve.
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Old 12-16-2007
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ok, first of there are a lot of conversions to make hydrogen for free, but its still fairly simple, n if you have made hydrogenthen you know theres not much to it, but although hydrogen is nothing new why hasnt anyone done it yet? most likely all the oil companies have bought up everyone who came up with a generator that they would sell in high production..
to warm the hydrogen to release it you would use the battery power to electricaly heat the tanks. im not sure yet but that may require another battery but i doubt it..
and i guess it is almost like proving a point.. "your paying for fuel everyday and well im paying for a few gallons of water... thats it"
as for putting electric motors in the vehicle, they have made an electric car already using fuel cells that run off hydrogen. but it simply comes down to power, no1 will buy a mustang gt that only goes 90mph... but using hydrogen it burns much faster than gas so its actually better than the gas you buy now... and you could produce hydrogen in your vehicle using the alternator and maybe solar panels but it would use up all your vehicles available space and it prolly wont keep up eventually meaning you would run out of gas but just wait a few hours then you could go again.. because the generators simply can not make hydrogen fast enough... and if you did electrical you still have to pay for the electricity you use... and its both, an emmissions free vehicle and a hydrogen vehicle.. well and fuel efficient, money saving, and its just plain cool to be able to say your car runs off of water.. lol
the goal is not to pay for gas pretty much, well for me anyways.. other people might like the fact that it doesnt have any emmisions pretty much and its almost free, the only thing i can think of what cities might do if hydrogen vehicles became world wide is water prices might go up, but i dont see that happening anytime in my lifetime...
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Old 12-16-2007
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oh and to FIRERANGER... guess you cant read, IT CAN'T EXPLODE! you can shoot the stupid tanks and it will only smoke...
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Old 12-16-2007
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Originally Posted by KoDaK
ok, first of there are a lot of conversions to make hydrogen for free, .
I'm not getting the free part. I can make a pair of light tabs free for my truck by finding some scrap metal. That "free" part goes away in a production environment when you have to produce a thousand light tabs. Same applies for a bumper or a skid plate or almost anything that we as individuals can do for free.

If solar panels are the answer to the free energy, then I would feed the solar energy into my house with the goal of spinning my meter backwards and getting a check from my utility company. In this scenario a large enough group of people could impact a power plant- less coal being burned to produce electricity.

There is a guy running his house AND car on hydrogen. Not sure if you get the Home Channels- DIY, TLC, HGTV? He has several solar panels using electrolosys to split water. The hydrogen is stored in tanks like a battery. The hydrogen is converted into electricty to run his house and charge a battery bank in his electric car. he's not burning it, he's converting it back to electricity.

Have you looked into the similarity between propane and Hydrogen? If similar there are propane conversion kits on the market. Slap that puppy on and you have in essence created a hydrogen burning car. All that is left is the hydrogen itself.
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Old 12-16-2007
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If solar panels are the answer to the free energy, then I would feed the solar energy into my house with the goal of spinning my meter backwards and getting a check from my utility company.

solar panels are one of the answers for free energy, but solar panels dont run a vehicle, thats what the hydrogen does.. and you can feed energy back into the grid with any excess energy you dont use.. but you will NOT get a check back, you get a credit on your account, so its pretty much useless to make excess energy, except for maybe in the winter when you dont want to go shovel the snow off your solar panels, then you can use your credit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by graniteguy
Have you looked into the similarity between propane and Hydrogen? If similar there are propane conversion kits on the market. Slap that puppy on and you have in essence created a hydrogen burning car. All that is left is the hydrogen itself.
you dont really need a conversion to run a car off hydrogen... well you hook up the hydrogen gas to your air intake and shut off the gasoline, thats pretty much it... but you also need a few engine controllers to get the correct burn ratio so you dont blow up your engine..


Quote:
Originally Posted by graniteguy
There is a guy running his house AND car on hydrogen. Not sure if you get the Home Channels- DIY, TLC, HGTV? He has several solar panels using electrolosys to split water. The hydrogen is stored in tanks like a battery. The hydrogen is converted into electricty to run his house and charge a battery bank in his electric car. he's not burning it, he's converting it back to electricity.

...thats stupid.. why would you use solar panels that make electricity to make hydrogen to make electricity again? thats like taking a battery and connecting a few capacitors and resisters just to connect to itself again... its wasting electricity... if he had solar panels to make hydrogen to run your fuel car then i understand. but its simply pointless to create hydrogen just to run an electric car..
it takes way more electricity to make hydrogen then it can make again using a fuel cell... take out the whole hydrogen and run everything off electricity.. but an electric car sucks, thats why im saying use hydrogen..




before i have to explain everything to everyone over and over again go to this site, they have made a hydrogen generator, metal hydride and argon tanks, everything needed to run a vehicle off hydrogen.. its http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ read everything there, it will help you understand a few things... although ive quoted a few things off there already it doesnt seem you know exactly what im trying to say... so check it out then come back and ask questions
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2007
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Originally Posted by graniteguy
I'm not getting the free part. I can make a pair of light tabs free for my truck by finding some scrap metal. That "free" part goes away in a production environment when you have to produce a thousand light tabs. Same applies for a bumper or a skid plate or almost anything that we as individuals can do for free.
to produce hydrogen generators are not free by any means... the product that the hydrogen generator creates is free, well not completly free but a whole hell of a lot cheaper than gas, you pay for the water you use, which you use less water than you would using gas anyways... so what 10 cents a gallon or whatever it is idk, compared to 3 bucks a gallon, it would cost under 10 dollars a month to run your vehicle... so its free energy just not free product.. lol you use more water to water your lawn or to wash dishes or take a shower than it does to run your car... well i guess that depends on how you live but its comparable. so you wont have a gas bill, it will seem free to you because you dont have a separate bill and your water bill wont go up except maybe a few bucks.. thats it
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Old 12-16-2007
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...thats stupid..
with all the grief you have recieved, you really want to call the one man that has done it....stupid? lol.
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Old 12-16-2007
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Originally Posted by KoDaK

you dont really need a conversion to run a car off hydrogen... well you hook up the hydrogen gas to your air intake and shut off the gasoline, thats pretty much it... but you also need a few engine controllers to get the correct burn ratio so you dont blow up your engine..




The conversion kits will get the right ratio so you don;t blow up the engine. What are you responding to here? I don;t get it.
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Old 12-16-2007
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Originally Posted by KoDaK
. why would you use solar panels that make electricity to make hydrogen to make electricity again? thats like taking a battery and connecting a few capacitors and resisters just to connect to itself again... its wasting electricity... if he had solar panels to make hydrogen to run your fuel car then i understand. but its simply pointless to create hydrogen just to run an electric car..
it takes way more electricity to make hydrogen then it can make again using a fuel cell... take out the whole hydrogen and run everything off electricity.. but an electric car sucks, thats why im saying use hydrogen..



because he has hydrogen to burn. lol. literally. He has 10,000 gallon storage capacity. The electricity that is not used directly into his house (tied his solar panel into the grid) is converted to hydrogen storage instead of battery storage. It can be stored almost indefinately and with less environmental damages than a battery system.
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Old 12-16-2007
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to produce hydrogen generators are not free by any means... the product that the hydrogen generator creates is free, well not completly free but a whole hell of a lot cheaper than gas, you pay for the water you use, which you use less water than you would using gas anyways... so what 10 cents a gallon or whatever it is idk, compared to 3 bucks a gallon, it would cost under 10 dollars a month to run your vehicle... so its free energy just not free product.. lol you use more water to water your lawn or to wash dishes or take a shower than it does to run your car... well i guess that depends on how you live but its comparable. so you wont have a gas bill, it will seem free to you because you dont have a separate bill and your water bill wont go up except maybe a few bucks.. thats it

You're missing my point. At least be realistic about the costs. If you want to spend $20,000 for solar panels to split the water, that cost HAS to be figured in.

Follow me on this. You know you have to use electricity to do this. I guess you acknowledge that plugging into your house to get the electricity will make your concept uncompetitive with gas. Why else would you suggest solar?

You said the hydrogen house guy was stupid for all the conversions. You propose going from solar to hydrogen to burning the hydrogen. Based on your right to consider the hydrogen house stupid, would a guy putting that solar electricity straight into his grid not call you stupid? the are skipping steps just like you are skipping steps from the hydrogen house.
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