K&N vs OEM Paper Airfilters - Page 5 - Ranger-Forums - The Ultimate Ford Ranger Resource


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  #101  
Old 03-12-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL View Post
Should I expect a total collapse of my truck soon due to the amount of garbage passing through?
No because it will never happen.
  #102  
Old 03-12-2009
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Originally Posted by STL View Post
I dont understand though

I have had my K&N CAI on for like 25,000 miles I have never had a problem with the MAF or throttle body.

I clean the filter every time I change oil. I have cleaned it also after it's been really dry and dusty during the summer when I didn't change the oil.

I'm not experiencing any problems with it like Bob says I should. Where I live it gets pretty dry and dusty during the summer.

Should I expect a total collapse of my truck soon due to the amount of garbage passing through?
it keeps out squirrels
  #103  
Old 03-12-2009
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I hate cleaning the damn KN filters. I can afford $15 for a new filter ever 10k miles. performance advantage IS NOT WORTH IT
  #104  
Old 03-13-2009
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Originally Posted by 08XLT4x4 View Post
I hate cleaning the damn KN filters. I can afford $15 for a new filter ever 10k miles. performance advantage IS NOT WORTH IT
I believe for "NORMAL" driving, the recommended change interval is 22K miles
for the OEM paper filter.
  #105  
Old 03-13-2009
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Originally Posted by 08XLT4x4 View Post
I hate cleaning the damn KN filters. I can afford $15 for a new filter ever 10k miles. performance advantage IS NOT WORTH IT
You hate cleaning the filter?

It's so easy my wife does hers on her car her self

If you can read then I don't see how it would be hard.
  #106  
Old 03-13-2009
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So far all I have seen is "dusted turbos". That does not sound like a harmed engine to me. I also saw a post about dusted intake with a paper filter. Does that mean we should not use paper filter either? Even if we say that K&N filters should not be used on turbos, that does not effect most Rangers.

I keep seeing posts including mine that state they have used K&N filters without harm to the engine but still have not seen any post or references that indicate K&N harms an engine when installed and maintained properly.

I suspect most or all situations where the use of K&N results in dust in the filtered side of the intake is due to some kind of leak around the filter. I have driven in such extremely dusty conditions that at the end of the day I had so much dirt on the hood I could not see the color of the hood. Later, when I cleaned the K&N filter, I took a clean white cloth and wiped the inside of the intake duct. There was not a spec of dirt (dust) in there. I guess it must have all gone into the engine. It must have also gone out the exhaust without doing any damage along the way.

The only problem I have with cleaning a K&N filter is waiting for it to dry. If I need the vehicle before the filter is dry, I just drop in the paper filter that was replaced until the K&N is ready to use again. I have no problem with using paper filters, I just prefer K&N.

Last edited by IN2 FX4; 03-13-2009 at 10:57 AM.
  #107  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Obviously yours must be passing a LOT OF DIRT to have to clean your throttle body, and MAF several times in 35K miles!! I've got a 160K+ miles
on my 3.0L, and the last time I checked them (about 15K miles ago) they
were all spotless, and they have never been cleaned!!!

Again, which one is a lie Rich????
You sir are a flat out lier. You have mis-understood and taken out of context what I said and did.

I've *not* cleaned my TB because of grit passing the K&N. I've said this to you many times. Yet you continually LIE.

Bob, I'm done with you. You are full of hidden agendas and continually lie about me, the things I say, the things I do, and you stalk me in an awful lot of posts.

Sir the hatered in your heart towards me is something you need to resolve before standing in Judgement. And if want to get right down to it.. God siad to resolve it before the sun goes down.


I wish you nothing but peace and hope that one day you'll desire truth.

Regards, Rich
  #108  
Old 03-13-2009
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Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
You sir are a flat out lier. You have mis-understood and taken out of context what I said and did.

I've *not* cleaned my TB because of grit passing the K&N. I've said this to you many times. Yet you continually LIE.

Unbelievable Rich, this is right out of your post:

After cleaning my TB with "fuel injection throttle body cleaner" and a soft tooth brush (several times in 35k miles)

If your throttle body didn't get dirty from the intake, where did it come from????


And one more time Rich, here are two of YOUR posts, which contradict each other, no misunderstanding, or "out of context" here:


One time you say this:

But.. my whole point on the matter is that this increased amount of debris is soooo small that it doesn't matter.


And another time you say this:

You will *likely* increase the amount of grit entering the intake.

Again, which one is a lie Rich????



And Rich, I have no hatred towards you, but you hold the record on this site for posting absolutely technically wrong information!!!!




Here we go with another Santa Clause story........

And what's even more incredible, you claim to be a M.E.!!!!

Last edited by Takeda; 03-13-2009 at 11:35 AM.
  #109  
Old 03-13-2009
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Ever wonder why throttle plates contain (guess) 95% of their "dirt" on the backside/internal side of the throttle plate, and not on the outside/filter side of the plate? Because the sludge that gets on the throttle plate, body and inside the upper intake manifold is caused from normal engine and emission functions and doesn't become totally gunked and sludged up from incoming "AIR" ...DUH.
  #110  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offroadn_redneck View Post
paper just looks cheeper anyway. Id get a K&N
So you did the clear airbox mod?

Personally, I run a Fram filter and swap it every other oil change. $10 vs $50 K&N. Sure, I've changed it 5 times. But with my Fram filter I just drop it in and I'm done. No cleaning, no oiling, no accidental over oiling, no arguments on forums, etc...

If/When I do a v8 swap I'll think about a K&N cone filter. My 3.0 doesn't flow enough air for a K&N to really give that much of a performance boost over a decent paper filter.
  #111  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFranger View Post
no accidental over oiling
How the hell can you over oil the K&N filter? It's so easy to oil.

You spay the oil on there and make sure there are no white spots.

People keep saying it's hard not worth the time.
I may over oil it.

When I clean mine I pull it out clean it off let it dry while I change the oil. By the time I'm done it is ready to oil. Oiling it is so damn easy.
  #112  
Old 03-13-2009
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Originally Posted by STL View Post
How the hell can you over oil the K&N filter? It's so easy to oil.

You spay the oil on there and make sure there are no white spots.

People keep saying it's hard not worth the time.
I may over oil it.

When I clean mine I pull it out clean it off let it dry while I change the oil. By the time I'm done it is ready to oil. Oiling it is so damn easy.
I'm sure there are people like Bob that use the whole can on the filter and install it while its still dripping. Then they complain that their intake tube is full of oil.
  #113  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL View Post
How the hell can you over oil the K&N filter? It's so easy to oil.

You spay the oil on there and make sure there are no white spots.

People keep saying it's hard not worth the time.
I may over oil it.

When I clean mine I pull it out clean it off let it dry while I change the oil. By the time I'm done it is ready to oil. Oiling it is so damn easy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CBFranger View Post
no arguments on forums, etc...


I could really care less. I've oiled plenty of cone filters. I prefer the non-oil type just because it's quicker and easier.
  #114  
Old 03-13-2009
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bahaha ive had k&n type filters on my ranger only, but ive ran a paper, drop in K&N and a Mac CAI with a K&N cone on my thunderbird, i got the worst performance out of the paper, when i switched to the CAI, i maintained it more because of its fender well location but my times in the 1/4 did drop, anywhere between .2 and half a second depending on weather, and it was automatic so you cant blame that on me shifting. right now im testing MPG with my K&N fipk and the drop in filter. the previous owner gave me both and i finally decided to see what the difference was, ill prolly do a thread on my results, but id run K&N just because its routine maintenance, i change my oil, and i clean my oil filter, its easy.
  #115  
Old 03-13-2009
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When I leave for Jefferson City I will fill up and drive up there on my K&N intake get a MPG reading

Before I leave I will put in the factory intake with paper filter and get a mpg reading.
  #116  
Old 03-13-2009
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^^post results lol

btw DC-1's FTW!!!
  #117  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL View Post
When I leave for Jefferson City I will fill up and drive up there on my K&N intake get a MPG reading

Before I leave I will put in the factory intake with paper filter and get a mpg reading.

For the last 3 weeks I've been running a K&N air filter just to see if my average MPG would increase over what I was getting with my OEM and Amsoil air filters. Always fill up at same gas pump and try not to vary my driving habits - for the past couple of weeks it seems that I've gained about 1 mpg with the K&N.
  #118  
Old 03-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlutoBodine View Post
Ever wonder why throttle plates contain (guess) 95% of their "dirt" on the backside/internal side of the throttle plate, and not on the outside/filter side of the plate? Because the sludge that gets on the throttle plate, body and inside the upper intake manifold is caused from normal engine and emission functions and doesn't become totally gunked and sludged up from incoming "AIR" ...DUH.
Disconnect the EGR, drive it 30k miles, and then re-inspect the throttle plate. You'll change you opinion.
  #119  
Old 03-14-2009
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No worries Kevin. I'll continue to post what I think about differing subjects.
I try to post only truth.. And if I make a mistake I readily own up. To do otherwise would be not Christ like.

My goal is only to help others see what is of good value and what is not in the **high performance** area. It's a field I very much like to think about, have 25+ years of experience in, and have even been an engineer for a few projects. (Including intake manifolds, water pumps, nitrous, NASCAR, astin martin, ect..)

To just run other people down w/o offering scientific based proof.. Would make someone just like Mr. stalker. Anyone can throw mud and say look.. He’s dirty. It takes a real man with a real brain to offer up proof of the point at hand. And IMO an even bigger man to make corrections when needed.

The reason Mr. stalker gets under my skin so much is because he claims to be a Christian. Well.. Dishonesty and antagonism are not Christ like at all. I try to PM him about such and yet he not only won't discuss it.. he continues out in public.
Had he not made such a claim I’d have blown him off looong ago.

For the sake of this thread topic.. and discerning truth. Let’s look into the science involved of the two filters he posts about.



Post #1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
I thought it would be interesting to do a comparison of the K&N drop in air filter vs the OEM paper air filter: Summary: K&N filter media area = 270 SQ. " OEM Paper media area = 1485 SQ. "
This first post of him is not science at all. And, he’s told two lies right off the bat!! I’ll give him the benefit of my DOUBT on the measurements. After all… when people have a hidden agenda they often times lie. Or at least use fuzzy math.
Personally.. I doubt he would have spent the money on a product that he hates. He offers no receipt for either..
He says and I quote: " I thought it would be interesting to do a comparison of the K&N drop in air filter vs the OEM paper air filter"
OK Mr. stalker.. prove to us you have not lied. Show us the reciepts.

Lie number 1. “OEM paper media” That is a premium aftermarket filter. Not an OEM unit.

Lie number 2. “Summary” It’s also science 101 to not jump straight to a conclusion!!

Fine. He measures the sq area and says nothing else. Well.. Science 101 also tells you two things. 1) Record your data and give *UNITS OF MEASURE*. One is a premium paper filter that most likely will be more restrictive *per a given sq inch* than the OEM motorcraft one. I suspect it has more sq inch surface area of the oem. Yet.. he does not offer that info.

2) And the other is an oiled gauze style that relies on the oil to do the debris trapping. The gauze is not the filter! It’s the carrier of the oil.

Simply.. The two filters function differently. Yet he try’s to support his hidden agenda with false premises that both filters function the same way. He’d have you draw the conclusion that they function the same and so an “oem” filter is therefore better than a K&N because it has more surface area.

Complete and utter dishonesty on the part of Mr. stalker.

He’s a liar
and looking into a little bit of truth behind his shallow claims will easily reveal it.

Regards, Rich

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 03-14-2009 at 08:22 AM.
  #120  
Old 03-14-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wydopnthrtl View Post
My goal is only to help others see what is of good value and what is not in the **high performance** area. It's a field I very much like to think about, have 25+ years of experience in, and have even been an engineer for a few projects. (Including intake manifolds, water pumps, nitrous, NASCAR, astin martin, ect..)

To just run other people down w/o offering scientific based proof.. Would make someone just like Mr. stalker. Anyone can throw mud and say look.. Hes dirty. It takes a real man with a real brain to offer up proof of the point at hand. And IMO an even bigger man to make corrections when needed.

The reason Mr. stalker gets under my skin so much is because he claims to be a Christian. Well.. Dishonesty and antagonism are not Christ like at all. I try to PM him about such and yet he not only won't discuss it.. he continues out in public.
Had he not made such a claim Id have blown him off looong ago.

For the sake of this thread topic.. and discerning truth. Lets look into the science involved of the two filters he posts about.


1) Record your data and give *UNITS OF MEASURE*. One is a premium paper filter that most likely will be more restrictive *per a given sq inch* than the OEM motorcraft one. I suspect it has more sq inch surface area of the oem. Yet.. he does not offer that info.

2) And the other is an oiled gauze style that relies on the oil to do the debris trapping. The gauze is not the filter! Its the carrier of the oil.

Simply.. The two filters function differently. Yet he trys to support his hidden agenda with false premises that both filters function the same way. Hed have you draw the conclusion that they function the same and so an oem filter is therefore better than a K&N.

Complete and utter dishonesty on the part of Mr. stalker.

Hes a liar and a little bit of truth behind his shallow claims will reveal it.

Regards, Rich

Rich again, a BAD post!!! I guess you missed this "unit of measure" in the
comparison:

Summary: K&N filter media area = 270 SQ. " OEM Paper media area = 1485 SQ. "

Also, the store I bought the K&N and Purolator had Fram, but not Motorcraft.
The Purolator and Fram had the same number of pleats, and I later found
a Motorcraft, and it also had the same number of pleats (and height by the way). SO one can assume all the OEM paper filters had the same area.

So, your claim of a "Premium" OEM paper filter isn't valid at all!!

Also everywhere you have been wrong from thermostats, to MAF sensors, to oil viscosities, to premium fuel, to spark plug heat ranges, and power (horsepower) I provided mutliple links to references that have proved you wrong, which you have NEVER
DONE!!!!!!
  #121  
Old 03-14-2009
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Where is the unit of measure? 270 sq what? Kittens? Feet? Football fields?


The fail is strong with you isn't it?
  #122  
Old 03-14-2009
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A quick lesson as to why a K&N offers a **potential** for increasing power.

There is a thing called pumping loss on a typical automotive gasoline engine.

The piston goes down creating a "delta P". (a change in air pressure)
The atmosphereic pressure pushes air into the cylinder because it's now a low pressure area.

Well that air goes through the body of the car, through the snorkle that the OEMs have put in place to quell induction noise, through the filter, through the zip tube (intake piping between the filter and the throttle plate), through the throttle body (most restrictive because of the plate), through the intake manifold, and finally gets to the intake valve.

That's a huge maze with many contorsions.

Laminar air flow means that the air has layers of flow velocity that is uninterupted. If you interupt this air flow then your creating a turbulace and only increasing restriction.

For the sake of a panel filter. The OEM paper one and a K&N offer no difference. (speaking only of flat panel ones)

Where they do differ is in the pressure drop across it. A oil gauze style has less of a pressure drop. That's why it has the **potential** of increasing power. But it will only be effective *if* it's a significant restriction point.
The only way to tell is to either use a dyno, data log a WOT pull on the road.
Drag strip trap speeds are a "shade tree" way of measuring this too. But.. unless you do a back to back comparison.. it's not a good way to measue just a panel filter.

Now.. lets talk about conical filters.
Here is where you stand to gain significantly!
Conical filters do three things that a panel never will.
1) They litterally create laminar air flow. There is no better way to fill a round pipe (zip tube) than with a conical filter stuck on its end. This will always be superior to a snorkel, rectangular air box, flat filter, and then a transition back to the round zip tube.

2) Delta P. A conical filter (of sufficient size) will always have less of a pressure drop than a panel K&N. Simply because given the same amount of underhood space.. there is a larger filter surface area.

3) Filter life. A conical pulls air across a single sq inch slow because it's larger. That means that dirt build up will be less (per sq inch) for a given time.
Also, a conical does not have dirt directed at it as much as does a panel. Just look at the evidence running each and you'll see for yourself. (I've used both for many years)

The only down side to a conical is underhood heat. Make a LARGE cold air box and you'll have the best of #1 & #2. #3 is really a function of where you duct air from and your driving conditions. (check out my web page and you can see my prototype made out of clear acrylic bought at home depot)



Rich
  #123  
Old 03-14-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
Also everywhere you have been wrong from thermostats, to MAF sensors, to oil viscosities, to premium fuel, to spark plug heat ranges, and power (horsepower) I provided mutliple links to references that have proved you wrong, which you have NEVER
DONE!!!!!!
Even if he is full of wrong information (which i doubt), like you claim he is, aren't there other people being wrong on this forum? There are, and you know it. So why do you single out Rich and make personal attack after personal attack against him? Go pick up that application, you really need it.
  #124  
Old 03-14-2009
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Originally Posted by ibowl9 View Post
So why do you single out Rich and make personal attack after personal attack against him?

I suspect it's because I try to be a nice guy. If I was the typical hard nosed type he'd most likely not bother with me.

I try pretty hard to be Christ like in all I do. Both in telling truth.. and in appoligizing when I'm wrong.

Guys don't take it personally. I'm not going anywhere. The only thing I'd change concerning R-F is Mr. stalkers attitude. That's not really a R-F thing though. It's more of a Matthew ch7:3-5 thing.

I'd be glad to post links to some science 101 for him. He NEVER sticks to the point at hand though.. it would be a complete waste of my time.

Something to consider.. when someone is arguing **thier hidden agenda** they will hardly ever enguage in the topic at hand. They seldom want to dig into the details of when, why, and how. I on the other hand try to keep and open mind that maybe there is something I've never considered. Sure I could be wrong! But just like in matters of God.. it'll take an open book to show me.


Later guys,
Rich
  #125  
Old 03-14-2009
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Rich, I respect that you try to be like Christ. Though that route is not particularly for me (we have discussed it in the past, you and I), it is nice to see people hold themselves to a high standard.

Now Takeda, you might as well just give it up.

Takeda has the stigma of "OEM ****". You make personal attacks, and just annoy the hell out of many people on this site. In my opinion, as well as the opinion of many others, your opinion is INVALIDATED because of your immature behavior.

Your posts clearly display your anger, while Rich's are calm, cool, and collected.
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